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#4701006 - 03/20/18 06:03 PM CVT Formulation for Multi-Vehicle CVT VOA
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 18956
Loc: Iowegia - USA
Elemental (in ppm) and Viscosity Characteristics:

Iron - 1
Boron - 350
Silicon - 6
Sodium - 4
Calcium - 570
Magnesium - 7
Phos - 758
Zinc - 5
Sulfur - 1120

Kinematic viscosity - 7.3 [email protected]

Brookfield Visc (ASTM D2983) - 8654

PP -55F

VI - 188

FP - 410F

TAN - 2.55

Not shown of course are other oxidation inhibitors, base fluid types, Traction Coefficient modifiers, surfactants, ashless dispersants, etc.
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#4701040 - 03/20/18 06:48 PM Re: CVT Formulation for Multi-Vehicle CVT VOA [Re: MolaKule]
benjamming Offline


Registered: 01/03/04
Posts: 5916
Loc: northern Alabama
Which product is this? What type of CVT?
In your expert opinion, do the multi-vehicle formulations work well for CVT?

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#4701067 - 03/20/18 07:13 PM Re: CVT Formulation for Multi-Vehicle CVT VOA [Re: benjamming]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 18956
Loc: Iowegia - USA
Originally Posted By: benjamming
Which product is this? What type of CVT?
In your expert opinion, do the multi-vehicle formulations work well for CVT?


This is my formulation for a customer and is comparable to most Multi-Vehicle CVT formulae. Will cover Nissan NS-1 through NS-3 specificationa and others.

One has to check the PDS and labels to determine what vehicle fluids are covered.

So far, yes, this additive and base oil combination works well.


Edited by MolaKule (03/20/18 07:16 PM)
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#4701090 - 03/20/18 07:30 PM Re: CVT Formulation for Multi-Vehicle CVT VOA [Re: MolaKule]
spasm3 Offline


Registered: 05/30/10
Posts: 8445
Loc: North Carolina
Lots of boron!! Is that for low temp anti-wear?


Edited by spasm3 (03/20/18 07:30 PM)
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#4701102 - 03/20/18 07:41 PM Re: CVT Formulation for Multi-Vehicle CVT VOA [Re: MolaKule]
spk2000 Offline


Registered: 02/19/13
Posts: 967
Loc: Prospect, KY
Not a CVT expert here have only driven one as a rental Nissan Sentra. I was under the impression that a CVT was like snowmobile belt drive and assumed it did not need fluid. It certainly does not have the friction plates in a standard or normal automatic transmission. What is the fluid needed for?
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#4701110 - 03/20/18 07:51 PM Re: CVT Formulation for Multi-Vehicle CVT VOA [Re: MolaKule]
bulwnkl Offline


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 1712
Loc: Arizona
CVTs in cars use chains, not belts.

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#4701160 - 03/20/18 08:24 PM Re: CVT Formulation for Multi-Vehicle CVT VOA [Re: spk2000]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 18956
Loc: Iowegia - USA
Originally Posted By: spk2000
Not a CVT expert here have only driven one as a rental Nissan Sentra. I was under the impression that a CVT was like snowmobile belt drive and assumed it did not need fluid. It certainly does not have the friction plates in a standard or normal automatic transmission. What is the fluid needed for?


Here is a very good paper explaining the the types of CVTs:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0094114X08001432


Edited by MolaKule (03/20/18 08:29 PM)
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#4701175 - 03/20/18 08:35 PM Re: CVT Formulation for Multi-Vehicle CVT VOA [Re: bulwnkl]
PimTac Offline


Registered: 03/04/17
Posts: 3512
Loc: Soviet State of Washington
Originally Posted By: bulwnkl
CVTs in cars use chains, not belts.


They do come with belts. Jatco uses a specially designed metal belt. Subaru and some others use a chain.
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#4701218 - 03/20/18 09:10 PM Re: CVT Formulation for Multi-Vehicle CVT VOA [Re: MolaKule]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 18956
Loc: Iowegia - USA
Originally Posted By: SPK2000
I was under the impression that a CVT was like snowmobile belt drive and assumed it did not need fluid. It certainly does not have the friction plates in a standard or normal automatic transmission. What is the fluid needed for?


Some CVT's are coupled to a Torque Converter (TC) and even Lock-Up TC's. So then a fluid is needed for it and to provide cooling, proper traction coefficients, and to prevent wear between the linking mechanism and the Variators.

Here is a post that may help that I made in the ATF, Differential, Trans, Brakes, P/S forum:

Quote:
...
Step-Shift ATF's and Friction Modification


The question of coverage has also been raised with the Dexron/Merc (Step-Shift) type fluids. If the Dex/Merc "Multi-Vehicle" ATF fluid has the proper friction modifier chemistries to support support a range of dynamic friction coefficients Mu(v), then they can provide a range of coverage and specifications.

Belt/Chain CVT's rely on another type of friction or coefficient of friction and that is called the, "Traction Coefficient."

This "Traction Coefficient" has to be within a certain range of values in order to properly transmit power and not let "slippage" occur, so special friction modifiers are part of the chemistry. The rest of the fluid contains base oils, Anti-Wear additives, and other components.

Now if the CVT fluid has the proper friction modifier chemistries to support support this range of "Traction Coefficients" then one fluid can cover Nissan NS-1 through NS-3 and other specifications.

As mentioned in other threads on ATF, whether it be for Step-Shift's or CVT's, ATF's are the most additized fluid in the automotive drivetrain because of these specialized friction modifiers.




Edited by MolaKule (03/20/18 09:17 PM)
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#4701353 - 03/21/18 12:19 AM Re: CVT Formulation for Multi-Vehicle CVT VOA [Re: spasm3]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 18956
Loc: Iowegia - USA
Originally Posted By: spasm3
Lots of boron!! Is that for low temp anti-wear?


This Boron component is a Mutli-Functional Boron Epoxide.
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#4702462 - 03/21/18 08:32 PM Re: CVT Formulation for Multi-Vehicle CVT VOA [Re: PimTac]
bulwnkl Offline


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 1712
Loc: Arizona
Originally Posted By: PimTac
They do come with belts. Jatco uses a specially designed metal belt. Subaru and some others use a chain.


Chain is another term for "metal belt."
;-)

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#4702632 - 03/21/18 11:42 PM Re: CVT Formulation for Multi-Vehicle CVT VOA [Re: MolaKule]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 18956
Loc: Iowegia - USA
smile

Look at this again, Figures 1 and 2, there is a difference in construction and nomenclature:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0094114X08001432
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#4703719 - 03/22/18 09:44 PM Re: CVT Formulation for Multi-Vehicle CVT VOA [Re: MolaKule]
bulwnkl Offline


Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 1712
Loc: Arizona
So, then, we all agree that automotive CVTs use metal-on-metal parts, and that's why they use oils? I call them all chains. I'm not terribly precise in my terminology in this realm, I find.

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#4704220 - 03/23/18 12:56 PM Re: CVT Formulation for Multi-Vehicle CVT VOA [Re: MolaKule]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 18956
Loc: Iowegia - USA
No Problem bw. cool

The belt type contains those metal elements embedded within the belt, and full metal elements for the chain type.

Whether Belt or Chain type, you have two competing requirements going on inside a CVT.

You have metal-on-metal contact and the associated wear with both, but you also have the need to prevent slippage so you don't have any torque loss due to slipping.

Those competing requirements require a careful balance of various chemistries in order to accommodate these competing requirements.



Edited by MolaKule (03/23/18 12:58 PM)
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