Low Ash Content

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Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
I'd agree with Brother Weasley with one caveat...

Theoretically, if you're not burning any oil, you're not pushing any ash out in to the exhaust, so you won't ever plug your DPF (except with soot of course). I'd also agree that all engines burn some oil even if 'some' is a very small number.

However I'd contend that this small amount of oil, is more likely to be additive-free (and therefore ash-free) light base oil that's been stripped out of the crankcase by the action of hot blow-by and the re-evaporation of condensed, unburnt/partially burnt diesel fuel (as opposed to fully formulated, ash containing oil that flows upwards passed the rings or into the combustion chamber through leaking valve seals).

Burning a small amount of oil might yet be consistent with putting no ash down your exhaust pipe.

Ash constantly finds its way to DPF and it is possible to measure with certain OBD devices. I think results are provided by differential pressure sensor.
For example, using Carly for BMW I can monitor ash build up in my car.
Also, same OBD device can tell you frequency of DPF regeneration and soot level. In that way one can figure out where is bad fuel and where is good fuel since DPF regeneration frequency differs between fuel suppliers (Shell having least frequent DPF regenerations at least here in CO).
NOACK is what matters here and that is why MB 229.51 is so specific on NOACK and Ash %.
 
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
I'd agree with Brother Weasley with one caveat...

Theoretically, if you're not burning any oil, you're not pushing any ash out in to the exhaust, so you won't ever plug your DPF (except with soot of course). I'd also agree that all engines burn some oil even if 'some' is a very small number.

However I'd contend that this small amount of oil, is more likely to be additive-free (and therefore ash-free) light base oil that's been stripped out of the crankcase by the action of hot blow-by and the re-evaporation of condensed, unburnt/partially burnt diesel fuel (as opposed to fully formulated, ash containing oil that flows upwards passed the rings or into the combustion chamber through leaking valve seals).

Burning a small amount of oil might yet be consistent with putting no ash down your exhaust pipe.

Ash constantly finds its way to DPF and it is possible to measure with certain OBD devices. I think results are provided by differential pressure sensor.
For example, using Carly for BMW I can monitor ash build up in my car.
Also, same OBD device can tell you frequency of DPF regeneration and soot level. In that way one can figure out where is bad fuel and where is good fuel since DPF regeneration frequency differs between fuel suppliers (Shell having least frequent DPF regenerations at least here in CO).
NOACK is what matters here and that is why MB 229.51 is so specific on NOACK and Ash %.


Yep. Good point. Never played with OBD before but I can imagine that if your car's fitted with the appropriate sensors, you can measure stuff like differential pressure across the DPF which would give you an indication of how your filter is plugging over time.

Fully agree with your comments on Noack. Less than 10% is where I'd be pitching for.
 
Interesting to see what the non combustible deposits in DPFs look like...metallic oxides, aka "dirt"
 
Even if a diesel engine doesn't appear to use oil, it certainly does. However diesel fuel does not evaporate as effectively as patrol/gasoline do and burnt oil is replaced by fuel.

I have experimented with high SAPS, mid SAPS HDEOs (1.0% ash) and had DPF problems later on. Can't say it is directly connected, but I've learnt my lesson.

Mid SAPS formulas have stricter requirements than FS , in right conditions they will perform just as as good or better.
 
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
I'd agree with Brother Weasley with one caveat...

Theoretically, if you're not burning any oil, you're not pushing any ash out in to the exhaust, so you won't ever plug your DPF (except with soot of course). I'd also agree that all engines burn some oil even if 'some' is a very small number.

However I'd contend that this small amount of oil, is more likely to be additive-free (and therefore ash-free) light base oil that's been stripped out of the crankcase by the action of hot blow-by and the re-evaporation of condensed, unburnt/partially burnt diesel fuel (as opposed to fully formulated, ash containing oil that flows upwards passed the rings or into the combustion chamber through leaking valve seals).

Burning a small amount of oil might yet be consistent with putting no ash down your exhaust pipe.

Ash constantly finds its way to DPF and it is possible to measure with certain OBD devices. I think results are provided by differential pressure sensor.
For example, using Carly for BMW I can monitor ash build up in my car.
Also, same OBD device can tell you frequency of DPF regeneration and soot level. In that way one can figure out where is bad fuel and where is good fuel since DPF regeneration frequency differs between fuel suppliers (Shell having least frequent DPF regenerations at least here in CO).
NOACK is what matters here and that is why MB 229.51 is so specific on NOACK and Ash %.


Yep. Good point. Never played with OBD before but I can imagine that if your car's fitted with the appropriate sensors, you can measure stuff like differential pressure across the DPF which would give you an indication of how your filter is plugging over time.

Fully agree with your comments on Noack. Less than 10% is where I'd be pitching for.

BMW being so complex, with Carly for BMW I can monitor some 100+ parameters.
 
Originally Posted By: edyvw
with Carly for BMW I can monitor some 100+ parameters.

Will Carly app work with most generic OBDII bluetooth dongles or does it require a proprietary one?
 
I asked Shell for the ash content of Pennzoil Platinum Euro. Here is the reply.

Hello Roger,

Pennzoil Platinum Euro L 5W-30 Full Synthetic Oil Motor Oil with Pureplus Technology is the product covers the MB-Approval 229.31 and 229.51 spec. See attached TDS.
The Sulphated Ash Content is an internal oil formula information that can not be share with the public.

Thank you very much.

Best regards,

Jeampy K.
Shell Canada, Technical Information Center

I guess I stay with Mobile 1
 
Originally Posted By: RogerBacon
I asked Shell for the ash content of Pennzoil Platinum Euro. Here is the reply.

Hello Roger,

Pennzoil Platinum Euro L 5W-30 Full Synthetic Oil Motor Oil with Pureplus Technology is the product covers the MB-Approval 229.31 and 229.51 spec. See attached TDS.
The Sulphated Ash Content is an internal oil formula information that can not be share with the public.

Thank you very much.

Best regards,

Jeampy K.
Shell Canada, Technical Information Center

I guess I stay with Mobile 1

Probably around 0.8%. BMW LL-04 max. is 0.8% so I would say it is around that.
It does not meet VW504.00/507.00 and that spec. is very stringent on after treatment equipment. That spec. allows ash up to 1.5%, but considering emission requirements of that spec. it is usually below 0.8%.
Considering it does not meet that spec. I would say it is in 0.8% range.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: edyvw
with Carly for BMW I can monitor some 100+ parameters.

Will Carly app work with most generic OBDII bluetooth dongles or does it require a proprietary one?

Yep, it is proprietary one:
Carly for BMW
 
Originally Posted By: RogerBacon
I think if it was any good, they would publish it like everyone else.

Not necessarily. Oil still meets MB229.51, and that puts it overall into top oils category. There are better oils, but in general scheme of things, if that was only oil available that fits my BMW< I would not sweat.
 
Originally Posted By: RogerBacon
I think if it was any good, they would publish it like everyone else.

Good? What is "good" ash content anyway? You don't want it too low because that may mean the oil has a very weak add pack. And you don't want it too high to protect DPF. It's a balancing act.
 
It does matter, and reason why catalytic convertors don't get clogged up in gas cars is bc the phosphorus levels have been reduced substantially, due to it ruining catalytic convertors. same goes for DPF, mid-high saps oil clogs up DPF.
 
Originally Posted By: RogerBacon
I asked Shell for the ash content of Pennzoil Platinum Euro. Here is the reply.


Euro L = 0.8%. (Same as SHU ECT C3 5W30.)

0W30 Euro LX (VW-504/507) = 0.6%. (same as SHU ECT C2/C3 0W30)

Use them both in my turbo Saab 9-5 (depending on specials in Australia.) After 180,000kms, still getting factory quoted fuel economy on the highway (7.6L/100kms (30MPG.) Has almost completely de-sludged the engine and wont use anything else. Ws burning 1L every 2500kms when I got the car, now
Saab's don't sludge: poor oil choices, poor servicing (not draining the 1L oil cooler) and excessively long OCI's sludge engines.

Regards
Jordan
 
Originally Posted By: JFAllen
Originally Posted By: RogerBacon
I asked Shell for the ash content of Pennzoil Platinum Euro. Here is the reply.


0W30 Euro LX (VW-504/507) = 0.6%. (same as SHU ECT C2/C3 0W30)


What makes you say this? ACEA C2 and C3 have a maximum ash limit of 0.8%. VW 504 00/507 00 is constrained by the need to have ACEA C3 (so again, 0.8% max). None of the OEM approvals on the Euro LX/ECT C2/C3 have an ash limit as low as 0.6% so there would be no reason to go down that low.
 
I also had these concerns and made a post on it. MBZ no longer recommends 229.51 for the Sprinter. They now use 229.52. If you want to play it safe then use MBZ Genuine 229.52 oil. After speaking with people that use this oil and have very high miles with no issues and original engines I have decided to go with it and do lab tests on it to see how it does.
 
I have a 2006 MB E320cdi with 134K and some research showed that either 229.51 or 228.31 oils are MB approved for it. I've been using M1 ESP Formula 5W30 but it's getting hard to find and expensive. There's lots of oils 228.51 and 228.31 approved and I recently bought several gallons of Delo 400 XLE 10W30 (which is 228.51 and 228.31 approved) on closeout. Will this work or should I keep looking for the M1?
 
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I put together a C3 / LL-04 / 229.51 comparison table here. It may be of some use to you.

full-73644-25115-aceac3.png


There are very few oils that meet both LL-04/229.51 and 504/507/C30.
 
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