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#4694562 - 03/14/18 12:32 PM How to Avoid Filtering Additives Out of Lubricants
BlueOvalFitter Offline


Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 6003
Loc: Cajun Country, La.
This is a great article to read. After this article, scroll down to read more interesting articles. ENJOY!


https://www.forconstructionpros.com/equi...-of-lubricants?

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#4694600 - 03/14/18 01:06 PM Re: How to Avoid Filtering Additives Out of Lubricants [Re: BlueOvalFitter]
JLTD Offline


Registered: 12/15/17
Posts: 937
Loc: US
Urgh so now a filter can be TOO efficient? Ow my brain.

Edit: OK, only down below 15 µm does that possibly occur. Might be the reason oil filters are considered very efficient at 20 µm!


Edited by JLTD (03/14/18 01:18 PM)
_________________________
Hers: 2008 Jeep Liberty 138k, AMSOIL® SS 5w30/Amsoil

His: 2015 4Runner 41k, AMSOIL® OE 5w20/Wix

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#4694648 - 03/14/18 02:10 PM Re: How to Avoid Filtering Additives Out of Lubricants [Re: BlueOvalFitter]
Virtus_Probi Online   content


Registered: 06/25/15
Posts: 4200
Loc: New England
I remember suddenly worrying about particle vs. filter pore size when I tried running some LiquiMoly MoS2 in my FXT. I was relieved to find that the manufacturer claimed the M0S2 particles were almost all between 0.2 and 0.5um. The idea that soluble, non-solid additives could be large enough to even possibly be a problem in an oil filter really surprises me.

There was a guy on subaruforester.com who bought his own finely powdered MoS2 to add to his oil, think he said he bought a slightly larger particle size (1-2um?) because the really fine stuff would blow away with the slightest breeze. My present firewall doesn't like that site, so I can't check the details at the moment...
_________________________
2014 Forester XT, 86000 miles
Last Change;
M1 5W30 d1G2
Tokyo Roki 15208AA170 filter

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#4694683 - 03/14/18 03:03 PM Re: How to Avoid Filtering Additives Out of Lubricants [Re: BlueOvalFitter]
Ihatetochangeoil Offline


Registered: 10/28/14
Posts: 587
Loc: On the road Midwest
Who is telling you what and what are they selling?

I will claim no personal educational credentials to disagree with the linked article...But I run a Puradyn bypass filter, and this is an excerpt from their FAQ: http://processfiltrationproducts.com/puraDYNFAQ.html

Q. HOW WILL THE puraDYN SYSTEM AFFECT OIL ADDITIVES CONTAINED IN NEW OIL?

A. Modern additives are added to oil to combat contaminants generated by the combustion process,
and to prevent excess wear under a “load.” When the puraDYN system is used, the contaminants
are continuously removed down to less then 1 micron, and therefore fewer additives are
depleted. A portion of additives that are depleted are replenished when make-up oil is added to
the engine and when additional make up oil is added at the time the puraDYN system filter
element is replaced at normal maintenance intervals. The balance of the additives that are
depleted are replenished as they are consumed by our patented filter, the standard filter element
containing time released additive pellets. Laboratory and field tests have fully established the fact
that the puraDYN system will not filter out or use up oil additives. The additives we use in our filter
are compatible with all additives in use today and will not upset the balance of the original
additive package. (See Ana Laboratories letter in ‘Customer Feedback’ section)

Readers may draw their own conclusions. My conclusion is that the Chevron guy wants to sell Chevron oil, and bypass filtration may reduce demand for Chevron products.
_________________________

2003 Lesabre
2004 Lesabre
2004 Impala
If ur NOT doing UOA then you're throwing away good oil or your engine is already damaged. Choose.

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#4694700 - 03/14/18 03:26 PM Re: How to Avoid Filtering Additives Out of Lubricants [Re: BlueOvalFitter]
Eddie Offline


Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 9732
Loc: Florida, Cape Coral
Lots of words without substance or data, so this is useless. Ed
_________________________
CX5 Touring 2.5L :-)

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#4694712 - 03/14/18 03:38 PM Re: How to Avoid Filtering Additives Out of Lubricants [Re: BlueOvalFitter]
MotoTribologist Offline


Registered: 02/03/16
Posts: 601
Loc: NJ, USA
I've seen silicone defoamers being filtered out before, but nothing else (aside from solid powder suspensions). That's about all I can say about that.

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#4694738 - 03/14/18 03:54 PM Re: How to Avoid Filtering Additives Out of Lubricants [Re: Eddie]
BlueOvalFitter Offline


Registered: 02/28/03
Posts: 6003
Loc: Cajun Country, La.
Originally Posted By: Eddie
Lots of words without substance or data, so this is useless. Ed

Eddie, when I was part owner of a small HVAC Mechanical/Plumbing company in Tampa, FL. I would receive this magazine monthly just for contractors (EQUIPMENT TODAY). I still get it, digital and magazine. I thought I would share some of the articles in this months edition. Please, don't hurt the messenger.
If you scroll down from this article I'm sure you can find one that might peak your interest. smile

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#4694769 - 03/14/18 04:40 PM Re: How to Avoid Filtering Additives Out of Lubricants [Re: Ihatetochangeoil]
Virtus_Probi Online   content


Registered: 06/25/15
Posts: 4200
Loc: New England
Originally Posted By: Ihatetochangeoil
Who is telling you what and what are they selling?

I will claim no personal educational credentials to disagree with the linked article...But I run a Puradyn bypass filter, and this is an excerpt from their FAQ: http://processfiltrationproducts.com/puraDYNFAQ.html

...

Readers may draw their own conclusions. My conclusion is that the Chevron guy wants to sell Chevron oil, and bypass filtration may reduce demand for Chevron products.


Wow...gotta be honest here, I want the additives that the oil came with and not what puraDYN thinks I should need.
(BTW, I do not use MoS2 or other aftermarket additives anymore)
I would guess that TP filters do not filter out additives?
_________________________
2014 Forester XT, 86000 miles
Last Change;
M1 5W30 d1G2
Tokyo Roki 15208AA170 filter

Top
#4694993 - 03/14/18 08:10 PM Re: How to Avoid Filtering Additives Out of Lubricants [Re: Eddie]
Ducked Offline


Registered: 10/25/12
Posts: 4484
Loc: Taiwan
Originally Posted By: Eddie
Lots of words without substance or data, so this is useless. Ed


Bit harsh, but yeh, dcoesn't say much, and some of what it says seems to be wrong, though that might be just bad writing.

For example

"However, there are several types of additives that can affect filtration." should surely be

"However, there are several types of additives that can be affected by filtration."

"Most lubricant additives are solubilized in the oil and are usually less than half a micron in size. "

seems misleading. If they are dissolved in the oil their "size" is the same as their molecular size, which  IIRC is generally measured in nanometres (0.0000000001 or 10 to the -9 metres).

An oil molecule might range from 1 to 10 nm or about 1/50 -500th th of half a micron, (10 to -6 metres) additives maybe a bit lower, so yes, its less than, but its A LOT less than.

I'd speculate (more unsupported words) that IF additives are active in solution but also present in solid, filterable form, there is likely to be an equilibrium between the two forms.

This would imply that filtered out additives are not necessarily lost, but may go into solution from the filter as the active form is depleted.


Edited by Ducked (03/14/18 08:14 PM)

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#4695008 - 03/14/18 08:21 PM Re: How to Avoid Filtering Additives Out of Lubricants [Re: Ihatetochangeoil]
Ducked Offline


Registered: 10/25/12
Posts: 4484
Loc: Taiwan
Originally Posted By: Ihatetochangeoil
Who is telling you what and what are they selling?

I will claim no personal educational credentials to disagree with the linked article...But I run a Puradyn bypass filter, and this is an excerpt from their FAQ: http://processfiltrationproducts.com/puraDYNFAQ.html

Q. HOW WILL THE puraDYN SYSTEM AFFECT OIL ADDITIVES CONTAINED IN NEW OIL?

A. Modern additives are added to oil to combat contaminants generated by the combustion process,
and to prevent excess wear under a “load.” When the puraDYN system is used, the contaminants
are continuously removed down to less then 1 micron, and therefore fewer additives are
depleted. A portion of additives that are depleted are replenished when make-up oil is added to
the engine and when additional make up oil is added at the time the puraDYN system filter
element is replaced at normal maintenance intervals. The balance of the additives that are
depleted are replenished as they are consumed by our patented filter, the standard filter element
containing time released additive pellets. Laboratory and field tests have fully established the fact
that the puraDYN system will not filter out or use up oil additives. The additives we use in our filter
are compatible with all additives in use today and will not upset the balance of the original
additive package. (See Ana Laboratories letter in ‘Customer Feedback’ section)


Er..I THINK they're telling me their filter is great, so...I think they're selling a filter.

Is there a prize?

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#4695241 - 03/15/18 01:36 AM Re: How to Avoid Filtering Additives Out of Lubricants [Re: Virtus_Probi]
Ihatetochangeoil Offline


Registered: 10/28/14
Posts: 587
Loc: On the road Midwest
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted By: Ihatetochangeoil
Who is telling you what and what are they selling?

I will claim no personal educational credentials to disagree with the linked article...But I run a Puradyn bypass filter, and this is an excerpt from their FAQ: http://processfiltrationproducts.com/puraDYNFAQ.html

...

Readers may draw their own conclusions. My conclusion is that the Chevron guy wants to sell Chevron oil, and bypass filtration may reduce demand for Chevron products.


Wow...gotta be honest here, I want the additives that the oil came with and not what puraDYN thinks I should need.
(BTW, I do not use MoS2 or other aftermarket additives anymore)
I would guess that TP filters do not filter out additives?


Gotta be honest here...I don't think you read my post...

Originally Posted By: Ihatetochangeoil
Who is telling you what and what are they selling?

Q. HOW WILL THE puraDYN SYSTEM AFFECT OIL ADDITIVES CONTAINED IN NEW OIL?

A. ...The additives we use in our filter are compatible with all additives in use today and will not upset the balance of the original additive package. (See Ana Laboratories letter in ‘Customer Feedback’ section)


BTW, I don't use any aftermarket additives either; and my conclusion is that the Chevron guy wants to sell Chevron products...And of course the Puradyn people want to sell filters. Who do you choose to listen to and what are they selling?
_________________________

2003 Lesabre
2004 Lesabre
2004 Impala
If ur NOT doing UOA then you're throwing away good oil or your engine is already damaged. Choose.

Top
#4695956 - 03/15/18 06:15 PM Re: How to Avoid Filtering Additives Out of Lubricants [Re: Ihatetochangeoil]
Virtus_Probi Online   content


Registered: 06/25/15
Posts: 4200
Loc: New England
Originally Posted By: Ihatetochangeoil

Gotta be honest here...I don't think you read my post...

Originally Posted By: Ihatetochangeoil
Who is telling you what and what are they selling?

Q. HOW WILL THE puraDYN SYSTEM AFFECT OIL ADDITIVES CONTAINED IN NEW OIL?

A. ...The additives we use in our filter are compatible with all additives in use today and will not upset the balance of the original additive package. (See Ana Laboratories letter in ‘Customer Feedback’ section)


BTW, I don't use any aftermarket additives either; and my conclusion is that the Chevron guy wants to sell Chevron products...And of course the Puradyn people want to sell filters. Who do you choose to listen to and what are they selling?


I sure did read that and I'm not buying it one bit.
They don't exactly get into details about what additives they might filter out, but what if they add calcium based "recharge" detergents to an oil that I have specifically selected for having a low concentration of those for avoiding LSPI?
There's no way that filter can sense the composition of an oil and replace only those additives they have filtered out. This sounds like just picking a random oil additive at O'Reilly without even knowing what it is and dumping it in my sump.
Maybe it would work out just fine, but it's not something I really want to do. I can generally find some detailed info about the oils I use online and looked around a lot to find something I felt would help me avoid LSPI before dexos1 Gen 2 came around with an actual test for that (used a variety of low calcium M1 products based upon my findings)...I'd need to see a lot more details from puraDYN before feeling comfortable with one of their filters.
I poked around on their website and didn't find a "Customer Feedback" section to look for info from a laboratory.

More power to you if you use their filters and love them, but I stand by my original statement.
_________________________
2014 Forester XT, 86000 miles
Last Change;
M1 5W30 d1G2
Tokyo Roki 15208AA170 filter

Top
#4697666 - 03/17/18 02:37 PM Re: How to Avoid Filtering Additives Out of Lubricants [Re: BlueOvalFitter]
JAG Offline


Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 4929
Loc: Fredericksburg, VA
I can’t say the author is right or wrong but I do know that detergents and dispersants surround unwanted particles of small enough size, attempting to hold themselves and the particles in suspension. IF these things are large enough for a bypass filter to capture, I suspect these additives will tend to continue holding onto the particles trapped by the filter, thus getting filtered out. Metallic-based detergents are detected in UOAs and I have not noticed reduced detergent concentrations in UOAs in which bypass filters were used. Dispersants can hold on to larger particles than detergents can. Dispersants are usually ashless, so not detected in UOAs. That lack of ability to detect them has had me wondering for years whether bypass filters can filter them out when they are holding onto unwanted particles.

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#4699021 - 03/18/18 07:44 PM Re: How to Avoid Filtering Additives Out of Lubricants [Re: BlueOvalFitter]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 19161
Loc: Iowegia - USA
Unless the filter, bypass or otherwise, can filter out nanometer-sized particles, I don't think additive content will be reduced.

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#4699208 - 03/18/18 10:43 PM Re: How to Avoid Filtering Additives Out of Lubricants [Re: BlueOvalFitter]
Nyogtha Offline


Registered: 10/13/14
Posts: 2363
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Agreed. Seems like confusion between materials in solution vs. suspension. Membrane technology like reverse osmosis is required to filter materials out of solution.
_________________________
"No matter how paranoid you are you're not paranoid enough. Tell the truth. Reach as many people as you can with it. That's your weapon." - Susanne Modeski, aka "Holly" to The Lone Gunmen

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