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#4692997 - 03/12/18 09:54 PM Re: Low Ash Content [Re: RogerBacon]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 11147
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: RogerBacon
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: RogerBacon
My Mercedes requires 229.51 which is hard to find and expensive.
Canadian Tire carries Pennzoil Euro L 5w-30 which meets this spec, but yeah, not exactly cheap.


This seems to be a pretty good oil but I can not find the sulphated ash spec. Mobile 1 ESP is the best I found at .6

It's probably right around 0.8%. Most MB 229.51 oils are very close to that. So are a lot of low-ash oils, for that matter. Maybe even most of them. Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 is an exception.
_________________________
2011 Mazda RX-8 R3
Mobil Super 5w-20

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#4693027 - 03/12/18 10:51 PM Re: Low Ash Content [Re: Linctex]
IllinoisSparky Offline


Registered: 10/12/15
Posts: 255
Loc: Illinois USA
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Canadian Tire carries Pennzoil Euro L 5w-30 which meets this spec, but yeah, not exactly cheap.


Walmart was selling 5 quart jugs the other day for $13 each. I grabbed three.


WOW. I wish I was that lucky. Good catch.
I would have picked up about 4 of them for my stash - good for 2 OC on my MB diesel.
_________________________
04Ford Explorer PUP 5W-30/Amsoil EaO
99MB CLK320 Redline 5W-30/Mahle
09 BMW X5 3.0i OEM 5W-30/OEM
11MB E350 Bluetec PP EuroL 5W-30/OEM

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#4693068 - 03/13/18 12:12 AM Re: Low Ash Content [Re: RogerBacon]
edyvw Online   content


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 4941
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: RogerBacon
If a diesel requires a low ash content oil because of the DEF filter, would it matter what the ash content was if the motor did not burn any oil? My Mercedes requires 229.51 which is hard to find and expensive. It does not burn ANY oil, so why does it need it. I will still run the good oil but I was just wondering.

There is a thing called evaporation loss or NOACK.
MB229.51 is particularly hard on NOACK, not allowing above 10%. BMW LL-04 or VW504.00/507.00 allow more then that.
NOACK and amount of ash (%) are the ones that matter when it comes to DPF pollution.
For Ontario, try to find 5W30 oils, preferably Mobil1 5W30 ESP due to lower then usual ash content (0.6%) and ver low NOACK (5.6%).
_________________________
13' BMW X5 35d (Mobil1 5W30 ESP+OEM filter)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (Castrol 0W40+MANN filter)

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#4693071 - 03/13/18 12:16 AM Re: Low Ash Content [Re: Kamele0N]
edyvw Online   content


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 4941
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: Kamele0N
Originally Posted By: RogerBacon
My Mercedes requires 229.51 which is hard to find and expensive.


you have many DPF specs wich are almost side by side...

Quote:
GM Dexos 2
The GM Dexos 2 specification is meant to be the replacement for both GM-LL-A-025 (gasoline) and GM-LL-B-025 (diesel) specifications for the European market. Oils meeting GM Dexos 2 are required for vehicles manufactured from MY2011 onward but they are also backward compatible with older models. This specification is built on the ACEA C3 standard but also contains elements from the ILSAC GF-4 deposit formation test and low-temperature sludge build-up test.


Quote:
BMW Longlife-04 (BMW LL-04)
Special BMW approval for fully synthetic long-life oil. Viscosities are SAE 0W-30, 0W-40, 5W-30 and 5W-40. Usually required for BMWs equipped with a diesel particulate filter (DPF). Can also be used where a BMW Longlife-98 or BMW Longlife-01 oil is recommended.


Quote:
MB 229.51
Low SAPS Long Life engine oil for diesel engines with particle filter meeting emission EU-4 -> standards.


VAG is a little different and above other standards....it has stringest norms regarding wear and piston deposits....especially @LL interval

Quote:
VW 507.00
Low SAPS oils suitable for Euro 4 engines and almost all VAG diesel engines from 2000 onwards with extended service intervals, unitary injector pumps and also Pumpe-Düse ("PD") engines. Excludes V10, R5 engines and VW Commercial vehicles without fitted DPF (diesel particulate filters) – these must use a 506 01 specification oil.


https://www.oilspecifications.org/

So if you can get any other oil with specs above you can easily go away with that....especially that will not be a problem because you tend to change your oil sooner over the pond smile

MB229.51 is slightly more stringent then VW504.00/507.00 when it comes to piston deposits. VW504.00/507.00 is more stringent wear wise BUT ONLY in 0/5W30 grades. VW504.00/507.00 is NOT applicable in 0/5W40 grades, and MB229.5 as well as BMW LL-04 is.
_________________________
13' BMW X5 35d (Mobil1 5W30 ESP+OEM filter)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (Castrol 0W40+MANN filter)

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#4693083 - 03/13/18 12:58 AM Re: Low Ash Content [Re: RogerBacon]
SonofJoe Offline


Registered: 07/23/16
Posts: 1052
Loc: Europe
I'd agree with Brother Weasley with one caveat...

Theoretically, if you're not burning any oil, you're not pushing any ash out in to the exhaust, so you won't ever plug your DPF (except with soot of course). I'd also agree that all engines burn some oil even if 'some' is a very small number.

However I'd contend that this small amount of oil, is more likely to be additive-free (and therefore ash-free) light base oil that's been stripped out of the crankcase by the action of hot blow-by and the re-evaporation of condensed, unburnt/partially burnt diesel fuel (as opposed to fully formulated, ash containing oil that flows upwards passed the rings or into the combustion chamber through leaking valve seals).

Burning a small amount of oil might yet be consistent with putting no ash down your exhaust pipe.


Edited by SonofJoe (03/13/18 01:00 AM)

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#4693084 - 03/13/18 01:13 AM Re: Low Ash Content [Re: SonofJoe]
edyvw Online   content


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 4941
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
I'd agree with Brother Weasley with one caveat...

Theoretically, if you're not burning any oil, you're not pushing any ash out in to the exhaust, so you won't ever plug your DPF (except with soot of course). I'd also agree that all engines burn some oil even if 'some' is a very small number.

However I'd contend that this small amount of oil, is more likely to be additive-free (and therefore ash-free) light base oil that's been stripped out of the crankcase by the action of hot blow-by and the re-evaporation of condensed, unburnt/partially burnt diesel fuel (as opposed to fully formulated, ash containing oil that flows upwards passed the rings or into the combustion chamber through leaking valve seals).

Burning a small amount of oil might yet be consistent with putting no ash down your exhaust pipe.

Ash constantly finds its way to DPF and it is possible to measure with certain OBD devices. I think results are provided by differential pressure sensor.
For example, using Carly for BMW I can monitor ash build up in my car.
Also, same OBD device can tell you frequency of DPF regeneration and soot level. In that way one can figure out where is bad fuel and where is good fuel since DPF regeneration frequency differs between fuel suppliers (Shell having least frequent DPF regenerations at least here in CO).
NOACK is what matters here and that is why MB 229.51 is so specific on NOACK and Ash %.
_________________________
13' BMW X5 35d (Mobil1 5W30 ESP+OEM filter)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (Castrol 0W40+MANN filter)

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#4693091 - 03/13/18 02:02 AM Re: Low Ash Content [Re: edyvw]
SonofJoe Offline


Registered: 07/23/16
Posts: 1052
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
I'd agree with Brother Weasley with one caveat...

Theoretically, if you're not burning any oil, you're not pushing any ash out in to the exhaust, so you won't ever plug your DPF (except with soot of course). I'd also agree that all engines burn some oil even if 'some' is a very small number.

However I'd contend that this small amount of oil, is more likely to be additive-free (and therefore ash-free) light base oil that's been stripped out of the crankcase by the action of hot blow-by and the re-evaporation of condensed, unburnt/partially burnt diesel fuel (as opposed to fully formulated, ash containing oil that flows upwards passed the rings or into the combustion chamber through leaking valve seals).

Burning a small amount of oil might yet be consistent with putting no ash down your exhaust pipe.

Ash constantly finds its way to DPF and it is possible to measure with certain OBD devices. I think results are provided by differential pressure sensor.
For example, using Carly for BMW I can monitor ash build up in my car.
Also, same OBD device can tell you frequency of DPF regeneration and soot level. In that way one can figure out where is bad fuel and where is good fuel since DPF regeneration frequency differs between fuel suppliers (Shell having least frequent DPF regenerations at least here in CO).
NOACK is what matters here and that is why MB 229.51 is so specific on NOACK and Ash %.


Yep. Good point. Never played with OBD before but I can imagine that if your car's fitted with the appropriate sensors, you can measure stuff like differential pressure across the DPF which would give you an indication of how your filter is plugging over time.

Fully agree with your comments on Noack. Less than 10% is where I'd be pitching for.

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#4693114 - 03/13/18 05:08 AM Re: Low Ash Content [Re: RogerBacon]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 39411
Loc: 'Stralia
Interesting to see what the non combustible deposits in DPFs look like...metallic oxides, aka "dirt"


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#4693368 - 03/13/18 11:55 AM Re: Low Ash Content [Re: RogerBacon]
chrisri Offline


Registered: 06/01/14
Posts: 1735
Loc: Rijeka, EU
Even if a diesel engine doesn't appear to use oil, it certainly does. However diesel fuel does not evaporate as effectively as patrol/gasoline do and burnt oil is replaced by fuel.

I have experimented with high SAPS, mid SAPS HDEOs (1.0% ash) and had DPF problems later on. Can't say it is directly connected, but I've learnt my lesson.

Mid SAPS formulas have stricter requirements than FS , in right conditions they will perform just as as good or better.
_________________________
99 FIAT Punto Sporting 16v MST 5w40
06 FIAT Stilo MW 1.9 Multijet SHU 5w40
07 Opel Vectra SW 1.9 CDTI 150 MST 5w40

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#4693625 - 03/13/18 04:14 PM Re: Low Ash Content [Re: SonofJoe]
edyvw Online   content


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 4941
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
I'd agree with Brother Weasley with one caveat...

Theoretically, if you're not burning any oil, you're not pushing any ash out in to the exhaust, so you won't ever plug your DPF (except with soot of course). I'd also agree that all engines burn some oil even if 'some' is a very small number.

However I'd contend that this small amount of oil, is more likely to be additive-free (and therefore ash-free) light base oil that's been stripped out of the crankcase by the action of hot blow-by and the re-evaporation of condensed, unburnt/partially burnt diesel fuel (as opposed to fully formulated, ash containing oil that flows upwards passed the rings or into the combustion chamber through leaking valve seals).

Burning a small amount of oil might yet be consistent with putting no ash down your exhaust pipe.

Ash constantly finds its way to DPF and it is possible to measure with certain OBD devices. I think results are provided by differential pressure sensor.
For example, using Carly for BMW I can monitor ash build up in my car.
Also, same OBD device can tell you frequency of DPF regeneration and soot level. In that way one can figure out where is bad fuel and where is good fuel since DPF regeneration frequency differs between fuel suppliers (Shell having least frequent DPF regenerations at least here in CO).
NOACK is what matters here and that is why MB 229.51 is so specific on NOACK and Ash %.


Yep. Good point. Never played with OBD before but I can imagine that if your car's fitted with the appropriate sensors, you can measure stuff like differential pressure across the DPF which would give you an indication of how your filter is plugging over time.

Fully agree with your comments on Noack. Less than 10% is where I'd be pitching for.

BMW being so complex, with Carly for BMW I can monitor some 100+ parameters.
_________________________
13' BMW X5 35d (Mobil1 5W30 ESP+OEM filter)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (Castrol 0W40+MANN filter)

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#4694326 - 03/14/18 08:41 AM Re: Low Ash Content [Re: edyvw]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 35721
Loc: Great Lakes
Originally Posted By: edyvw
with Carly for BMW I can monitor some 100+ parameters.

Will Carly app work with most generic OBDII bluetooth dongles or does it require a proprietary one?
_________________________
'02 530i (Edge 0W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T (Edge 5W-40)
'18 Charger SRT (FF)

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#4694814 - 03/14/18 05:35 PM Re: Low Ash Content [Re: RogerBacon]
RogerBacon Offline


Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 98
Loc: Ontario
I asked Shell for the ash content of Pennzoil Platinum Euro. Here is the reply.

Hello Roger,

Pennzoil Platinum Euro L 5W-30 Full Synthetic Oil Motor Oil with Pureplus Technology is the product covers the MB-Approval 229.31 and 229.51 spec. See attached TDS.
The Sulphated Ash Content is an internal oil formula information that can not be share with the public.

Thank you very much.

Best regards,

Jeampy K.
Shell Canada, Technical Information Center

I guess I stay with Mobile 1

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#4694856 - 03/14/18 06:11 PM Re: Low Ash Content [Re: RogerBacon]
edyvw Online   content


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 4941
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: RogerBacon
I asked Shell for the ash content of Pennzoil Platinum Euro. Here is the reply.

Hello Roger,

Pennzoil Platinum Euro L 5W-30 Full Synthetic Oil Motor Oil with Pureplus Technology is the product covers the MB-Approval 229.31 and 229.51 spec. See attached TDS.
The Sulphated Ash Content is an internal oil formula information that can not be share with the public.

Thank you very much.

Best regards,

Jeampy K.
Shell Canada, Technical Information Center

I guess I stay with Mobile 1

Probably around 0.8%. BMW LL-04 max. is 0.8% so I would say it is around that.
It does not meet VW504.00/507.00 and that spec. is very stringent on after treatment equipment. That spec. allows ash up to 1.5%, but considering emission requirements of that spec. it is usually below 0.8%.
Considering it does not meet that spec. I would say it is in 0.8% range.
_________________________
13' BMW X5 35d (Mobil1 5W30 ESP+OEM filter)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (Castrol 0W40+MANN filter)

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#4694858 - 03/14/18 06:13 PM Re: Low Ash Content [Re: Quattro Pete]
edyvw Online   content


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 4941
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: edyvw
with Carly for BMW I can monitor some 100+ parameters.

Will Carly app work with most generic OBDII bluetooth dongles or does it require a proprietary one?

Yep, it is proprietary one:
Carly for BMW
_________________________
13' BMW X5 35d (Mobil1 5W30 ESP+OEM filter)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (Castrol 0W40+MANN filter)

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#4695037 - 03/14/18 08:47 PM Re: Low Ash Content [Re: edyvw]
RogerBacon Offline


Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 98
Loc: Ontario
I think if it was any good, they would publish it like everyone else.

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