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Re: Low Ash Content [Re: RogerBacon] #4692997
03/12/18 08:54 PM
03/12/18 08:54 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 11,501
PA
d00df00d Online content
d00df00d  Online Content
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 11,501
PA
Originally Posted By: RogerBacon
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: RogerBacon
My Mercedes requires 229.51 which is hard to find and expensive.
Canadian Tire carries Pennzoil Euro L 5w-30 which meets this spec, but yeah, not exactly cheap.


This seems to be a pretty good oil but I can not find the sulphated ash spec. Mobile 1 ESP is the best I found at .6

It's probably right around 0.8%. Most MB 229.51 oils are very close to that. So are a lot of low-ash oils, for that matter. Maybe even most of them. Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 is an exception.


2008 BMW M3
Re: Low Ash Content [Re: Linctex] #4693027
03/12/18 09:51 PM
03/12/18 09:51 PM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 307
Illinois USA
IllinoisSparky Offline
IllinoisSparky  Offline
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 307
Illinois USA
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Canadian Tire carries Pennzoil Euro L 5w-30 which meets this spec, but yeah, not exactly cheap.


Walmart was selling 5 quart jugs the other day for $13 each. I grabbed three.


WOW. I wish I was that lucky. Good catch.
I would have picked up about 4 of them for my stash - good for 2 OC on my MB diesel.


04 Ford Explorer PP 5W-30/Puro PSL
99 MB CLK320 Castrol 0W-40/M1 filter
08 MB SL550 M1 0W-40/MB
09 BMW X5 3.0i Dealer 5W-30/BMW
11 MB E350 Bluetec MB 5W-30/MB
Re: Low Ash Content [Re: RogerBacon] #4693068
03/12/18 11:12 PM
03/12/18 11:12 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,872
Colorado Springs
edyvw Online content
edyvw  Online Content
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,872
Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: RogerBacon
If a diesel requires a low ash content oil because of the DEF filter, would it matter what the ash content was if the motor did not burn any oil? My Mercedes requires 229.51 which is hard to find and expensive. It does not burn ANY oil, so why does it need it. I will still run the good oil but I was just wondering.

There is a thing called evaporation loss or NOACK.
MB229.51 is particularly hard on NOACK, not allowing above 10%. BMW LL-04 or VW504.00/507.00 allow more then that.
NOACK and amount of ash (%) are the ones that matter when it comes to DPF pollution.
For Ontario, try to find 5W30 oils, preferably Mobil1 5W30 ESP due to lower then usual ash content (0.6%) and ver low NOACK (5.6%).


15' Toyota Sienna AWD (Mobil1 5W30 EP+OEM filter).
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (Castrol 0W40+MANN filter)
Re: Low Ash Content [Re: Kamele0N] #4693071
03/12/18 11:16 PM
03/12/18 11:16 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,872
Colorado Springs
edyvw Online content
edyvw  Online Content
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,872
Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: Kamele0N
Originally Posted By: RogerBacon
My Mercedes requires 229.51 which is hard to find and expensive.


you have many DPF specs wich are almost side by side...

Quote:
GM Dexos 2
The GM Dexos 2 specification is meant to be the replacement for both GM-LL-A-025 (gasoline) and GM-LL-B-025 (diesel) specifications for the European market. Oils meeting GM Dexos 2 are required for vehicles manufactured from MY2011 onward but they are also backward compatible with older models. This specification is built on the ACEA C3 standard but also contains elements from the ILSAC GF-4 deposit formation test and low-temperature sludge build-up test.


Quote:
BMW Longlife-04 (BMW LL-04)
Special BMW approval for fully synthetic long-life oil. Viscosities are SAE 0W-30, 0W-40, 5W-30 and 5W-40. Usually required for BMWs equipped with a diesel particulate filter (DPF). Can also be used where a BMW Longlife-98 or BMW Longlife-01 oil is recommended.


Quote:
MB 229.51
Low SAPS Long Life engine oil for diesel engines with particle filter meeting emission EU-4 -> standards.


VAG is a little different and above other standards....it has stringest norms regarding wear and piston deposits....especially @LL interval

Quote:
VW 507.00
Low SAPS oils suitable for Euro 4 engines and almost all VAG diesel engines from 2000 onwards with extended service intervals, unitary injector pumps and also Pumpe-Düse ("PD") engines. Excludes V10, R5 engines and VW Commercial vehicles without fitted DPF (diesel particulate filters) – these must use a 506 01 specification oil.


https://www.oilspecifications.org/

So if you can get any other oil with specs above you can easily go away with that....especially that will not be a problem because you tend to change your oil sooner over the pond smile

MB229.51 is slightly more stringent then VW504.00/507.00 when it comes to piston deposits. VW504.00/507.00 is more stringent wear wise BUT ONLY in 0/5W30 grades. VW504.00/507.00 is NOT applicable in 0/5W40 grades, and MB229.5 as well as BMW LL-04 is.


15' Toyota Sienna AWD (Mobil1 5W30 EP+OEM filter).
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (Castrol 0W40+MANN filter)
Re: Low Ash Content [Re: RogerBacon] #4693083
03/12/18 11:58 PM
03/12/18 11:58 PM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,242
Europe
SonofJoe Offline
SonofJoe  Offline
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,242
Europe
I'd agree with Brother Weasley with one caveat...

Theoretically, if you're not burning any oil, you're not pushing any ash out in to the exhaust, so you won't ever plug your DPF (except with soot of course). I'd also agree that all engines burn some oil even if 'some' is a very small number.

However I'd contend that this small amount of oil, is more likely to be additive-free (and therefore ash-free) light base oil that's been stripped out of the crankcase by the action of hot blow-by and the re-evaporation of condensed, unburnt/partially burnt diesel fuel (as opposed to fully formulated, ash containing oil that flows upwards passed the rings or into the combustion chamber through leaking valve seals).

Burning a small amount of oil might yet be consistent with putting no ash down your exhaust pipe.

Last edited by SonofJoe; 03/13/18 12:00 AM.
Re: Low Ash Content [Re: SonofJoe] #4693084
03/13/18 12:13 AM
03/13/18 12:13 AM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,872
Colorado Springs
edyvw Online content
edyvw  Online Content
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,872
Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
I'd agree with Brother Weasley with one caveat...

Theoretically, if you're not burning any oil, you're not pushing any ash out in to the exhaust, so you won't ever plug your DPF (except with soot of course). I'd also agree that all engines burn some oil even if 'some' is a very small number.

However I'd contend that this small amount of oil, is more likely to be additive-free (and therefore ash-free) light base oil that's been stripped out of the crankcase by the action of hot blow-by and the re-evaporation of condensed, unburnt/partially burnt diesel fuel (as opposed to fully formulated, ash containing oil that flows upwards passed the rings or into the combustion chamber through leaking valve seals).

Burning a small amount of oil might yet be consistent with putting no ash down your exhaust pipe.

Ash constantly finds its way to DPF and it is possible to measure with certain OBD devices. I think results are provided by differential pressure sensor.
For example, using Carly for BMW I can monitor ash build up in my car.
Also, same OBD device can tell you frequency of DPF regeneration and soot level. In that way one can figure out where is bad fuel and where is good fuel since DPF regeneration frequency differs between fuel suppliers (Shell having least frequent DPF regenerations at least here in CO).
NOACK is what matters here and that is why MB 229.51 is so specific on NOACK and Ash %.


15' Toyota Sienna AWD (Mobil1 5W30 EP+OEM filter).
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (Castrol 0W40+MANN filter)
Re: Low Ash Content [Re: edyvw] #4693091
03/13/18 01:02 AM
03/13/18 01:02 AM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,242
Europe
SonofJoe Offline
SonofJoe  Offline
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,242
Europe
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
I'd agree with Brother Weasley with one caveat...

Theoretically, if you're not burning any oil, you're not pushing any ash out in to the exhaust, so you won't ever plug your DPF (except with soot of course). I'd also agree that all engines burn some oil even if 'some' is a very small number.

However I'd contend that this small amount of oil, is more likely to be additive-free (and therefore ash-free) light base oil that's been stripped out of the crankcase by the action of hot blow-by and the re-evaporation of condensed, unburnt/partially burnt diesel fuel (as opposed to fully formulated, ash containing oil that flows upwards passed the rings or into the combustion chamber through leaking valve seals).

Burning a small amount of oil might yet be consistent with putting no ash down your exhaust pipe.

Ash constantly finds its way to DPF and it is possible to measure with certain OBD devices. I think results are provided by differential pressure sensor.
For example, using Carly for BMW I can monitor ash build up in my car.
Also, same OBD device can tell you frequency of DPF regeneration and soot level. In that way one can figure out where is bad fuel and where is good fuel since DPF regeneration frequency differs between fuel suppliers (Shell having least frequent DPF regenerations at least here in CO).
NOACK is what matters here and that is why MB 229.51 is so specific on NOACK and Ash %.


Yep. Good point. Never played with OBD before but I can imagine that if your car's fitted with the appropriate sensors, you can measure stuff like differential pressure across the DPF which would give you an indication of how your filter is plugging over time.

Fully agree with your comments on Noack. Less than 10% is where I'd be pitching for.

Re: Low Ash Content [Re: RogerBacon] #4693114
03/13/18 04:08 AM
03/13/18 04:08 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,966
'Stralia
Shannow Online content
Shannow  Online Content
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,966
'Stralia
Interesting to see what the non combustible deposits in DPFs look like...metallic oxides, aka "dirt"


Re: Low Ash Content [Re: RogerBacon] #4693368
03/13/18 10:55 AM
03/13/18 10:55 AM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,755
Rijeka, EU
chrisri Offline
chrisri  Offline
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,755
Rijeka, EU
Even if a diesel engine doesn't appear to use oil, it certainly does. However diesel fuel does not evaporate as effectively as patrol/gasoline do and burnt oil is replaced by fuel.

I have experimented with high SAPS, mid SAPS HDEOs (1.0% ash) and had DPF problems later on. Can't say it is directly connected, but I've learnt my lesson.

Mid SAPS formulas have stricter requirements than FS , in right conditions they will perform just as as good or better.


02 Nissan Terrano 2.7.TDi Motul 15w40
06 FIAT Stilo MW 1.9 Multijet SHU 5w40
07 Opel Vectra SW 1.9 CDTI 150 MST 5w40
Re: Low Ash Content [Re: SonofJoe] #4693625
03/13/18 03:14 PM
03/13/18 03:14 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,872
Colorado Springs
edyvw Online content
edyvw  Online Content
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,872
Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
I'd agree with Brother Weasley with one caveat...

Theoretically, if you're not burning any oil, you're not pushing any ash out in to the exhaust, so you won't ever plug your DPF (except with soot of course). I'd also agree that all engines burn some oil even if 'some' is a very small number.

However I'd contend that this small amount of oil, is more likely to be additive-free (and therefore ash-free) light base oil that's been stripped out of the crankcase by the action of hot blow-by and the re-evaporation of condensed, unburnt/partially burnt diesel fuel (as opposed to fully formulated, ash containing oil that flows upwards passed the rings or into the combustion chamber through leaking valve seals).

Burning a small amount of oil might yet be consistent with putting no ash down your exhaust pipe.

Ash constantly finds its way to DPF and it is possible to measure with certain OBD devices. I think results are provided by differential pressure sensor.
For example, using Carly for BMW I can monitor ash build up in my car.
Also, same OBD device can tell you frequency of DPF regeneration and soot level. In that way one can figure out where is bad fuel and where is good fuel since DPF regeneration frequency differs between fuel suppliers (Shell having least frequent DPF regenerations at least here in CO).
NOACK is what matters here and that is why MB 229.51 is so specific on NOACK and Ash %.


Yep. Good point. Never played with OBD before but I can imagine that if your car's fitted with the appropriate sensors, you can measure stuff like differential pressure across the DPF which would give you an indication of how your filter is plugging over time.

Fully agree with your comments on Noack. Less than 10% is where I'd be pitching for.

BMW being so complex, with Carly for BMW I can monitor some 100+ parameters.


15' Toyota Sienna AWD (Mobil1 5W30 EP+OEM filter).
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (Castrol 0W40+MANN filter)
Re: Low Ash Content [Re: edyvw] #4694326
03/14/18 07:41 AM
03/14/18 07:41 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 36,772
Great Lakes
Quattro Pete Offline
Quattro Pete  Offline
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 36,772
Great Lakes
Originally Posted By: edyvw
with Carly for BMW I can monitor some 100+ parameters.

Will Carly app work with most generic OBDII bluetooth dongles or does it require a proprietary one?


'02 530i (Edge 0W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T (Edge 5W-40)
'18 Charger SRT (PUP 0W-40 SRT)
Re: Low Ash Content [Re: RogerBacon] #4694814
03/14/18 04:35 PM
03/14/18 04:35 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 109
Ontario
RogerBacon Offline OP
RogerBacon  Offline OP
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 109
Ontario
I asked Shell for the ash content of Pennzoil Platinum Euro. Here is the reply.

Hello Roger,

Pennzoil Platinum Euro L 5W-30 Full Synthetic Oil Motor Oil with Pureplus Technology is the product covers the MB-Approval 229.31 and 229.51 spec. See attached TDS.
The Sulphated Ash Content is an internal oil formula information that can not be share with the public.

Thank you very much.

Best regards,

Jeampy K.
Shell Canada, Technical Information Center

I guess I stay with Mobile 1

Re: Low Ash Content [Re: RogerBacon] #4694856
03/14/18 05:11 PM
03/14/18 05:11 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,872
Colorado Springs
edyvw Online content
edyvw  Online Content
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,872
Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: RogerBacon
I asked Shell for the ash content of Pennzoil Platinum Euro. Here is the reply.

Hello Roger,

Pennzoil Platinum Euro L 5W-30 Full Synthetic Oil Motor Oil with Pureplus Technology is the product covers the MB-Approval 229.31 and 229.51 spec. See attached TDS.
The Sulphated Ash Content is an internal oil formula information that can not be share with the public.

Thank you very much.

Best regards,

Jeampy K.
Shell Canada, Technical Information Center

I guess I stay with Mobile 1

Probably around 0.8%. BMW LL-04 max. is 0.8% so I would say it is around that.
It does not meet VW504.00/507.00 and that spec. is very stringent on after treatment equipment. That spec. allows ash up to 1.5%, but considering emission requirements of that spec. it is usually below 0.8%.
Considering it does not meet that spec. I would say it is in 0.8% range.


15' Toyota Sienna AWD (Mobil1 5W30 EP+OEM filter).
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (Castrol 0W40+MANN filter)
Re: Low Ash Content [Re: Quattro Pete] #4694858
03/14/18 05:13 PM
03/14/18 05:13 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,872
Colorado Springs
edyvw Online content
edyvw  Online Content
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,872
Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: edyvw
with Carly for BMW I can monitor some 100+ parameters.

Will Carly app work with most generic OBDII bluetooth dongles or does it require a proprietary one?

Yep, it is proprietary one:
Carly for BMW


15' Toyota Sienna AWD (Mobil1 5W30 EP+OEM filter).
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (Castrol 0W40+MANN filter)
Re: Low Ash Content [Re: edyvw] #4695037
03/14/18 07:47 PM
03/14/18 07:47 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 109
Ontario
RogerBacon Offline OP
RogerBacon  Offline OP
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 109
Ontario
I think if it was any good, they would publish it like everyone else.

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