Patman
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If you use a very good base oil could a 0w40 be built that uses no viscosity index improvers? I believe the original GC 0w30 (which was almost a 0w40) used little or no VII in it, thanks to it's super trick base oil.
Is it possible to build a 0w40 with no VII?
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A PAO Blend of high and low visc PAO might meet pour but not mrv, so likely NO.
IIRC PP of long chain PAO are much higher than the 4sct(KV100) at typ below -80
Havent "bench blended" with PAO plus AN and POA blends
A PAO Blend of high and low visc PAO might meet pour but not mrv, so likely NO.
IIRC PP of long chain PAO are much higher than the 4sct(KV100) at typ below -80
Havent "bench blended" with PAO plus AN and POA blends
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MPT 30K 0W-40 claims little to almost no VII added to their 0W-40 formulation.
I actually spoke to their owner about this.
Due to their TOTALLY PAO/POE base stocks used (except for the proverbial 'carrier oils' of course
), he said they had to add just the tiniest little bit to the 0W-40, but NONE whatsoever added to all of the other weights they offer.
This is also WHY their VIs are somewhat low compared to most else out there on the boutique market.
But, I would be VERY hesitant to use their oils in a modern GDI setup due to the very high calcium content (almost 2300 ppm!), as well as an almost race oil level of ZDDP.
(Curious; does Chevy/GM offer a walnut shell blasting cleaner service for the current GDI LTxes? Ford does NOT, so when that is needed, I must go to an aftermarket 'tuner' to get this done.)
I actually spoke to their owner about this.
Due to their TOTALLY PAO/POE base stocks used (except for the proverbial 'carrier oils' of course
This is also WHY their VIs are somewhat low compared to most else out there on the boutique market.
But, I would be VERY hesitant to use their oils in a modern GDI setup due to the very high calcium content (almost 2300 ppm!), as well as an almost race oil level of ZDDP.
(Curious; does Chevy/GM offer a walnut shell blasting cleaner service for the current GDI LTxes? Ford does NOT, so when that is needed, I must go to an aftermarket 'tuner' to get this done.)
With a PAO and oil soluble PAG blend I bet I could make a 0W-40 without VI improvers. However, I wouldn't recommend putting it into an engine.
Patman
Staff member
Originally Posted By: MotoTribologist
With a PAO and oil soluble PAG blend I bet I could make a 0W-40 without VI improvers. However, I wouldn't recommend putting it into an engine.
Why is that?
With a PAO and oil soluble PAG blend I bet I could make a 0W-40 without VI improvers. However, I wouldn't recommend putting it into an engine.
Why is that?
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Originally Posted By: Patman
If you use a very good base oil could a 0w40 be built that uses no viscosity index improvers? I believe the original GC 0w30 (which was almost a 0w40) used little or no VII in it, thanks to it's super trick base oil.
The original GC was, like the original M1 0w-40, mostly PAO. This was also the case for some of the earlier formulas of the Castrol 0w-40.
The ones that are majority PAO will still have some VII in them, but it won't be a ton IMHO. You can, as ARCO noted, probably knock MRV out of the park with PAO, it's hitting the CCS target that is difficult, so you end up using a lighter base and a touch of VII to bring the visc up.
If you use a very good base oil could a 0w40 be built that uses no viscosity index improvers? I believe the original GC 0w30 (which was almost a 0w40) used little or no VII in it, thanks to it's super trick base oil.
The original GC was, like the original M1 0w-40, mostly PAO. This was also the case for some of the earlier formulas of the Castrol 0w-40.
The ones that are majority PAO will still have some VII in them, but it won't be a ton IMHO. You can, as ARCO noted, probably knock MRV out of the park with PAO, it's hitting the CCS target that is difficult, so you end up using a lighter base and a touch of VII to bring the visc up.
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Speaking just from a base oil perspective, which isn't really practical, but for the sake of calculation, it's easier, we could try and target the 12.9cSt of M1 0w-40 "FS" using a PAO base blend of the following:
1. SpectraSyn 8 - 8cSt @ 100C, 48cSt @ 40C, MRV of 16,200cP @ -40C, CCS of 4,800cP. 4.1% NOACK,
2. SpectraSyn 40 - 39cSt @ 100C, 396cSt @ 40C, MRV of 102,000cP @ -26C, CCS N/A, NOACK N/A
Using the Widman visc calc, to hit our 12.9cSt target we'd need 66.3% of SpectraSyn 8 and 33.6% of SpectraSyn 40. We could use an even heavier base and move that around a bit but the resulting product of the above blend would have the following characteristics:
100C Visc: 12.9cSt
40C Visc: 90.3cSt
VI: 141
And it is quite possible for it to be below the MRV limit at -40C. It would fail CCS though.
A blend using SpectraSyn 100 instead would put us at roughly 77% SpectraSyn 8, which might yield more favourable low temp performance, but I'm not an expert so I could be completely off-base there, LOL
1. SpectraSyn 8 - 8cSt @ 100C, 48cSt @ 40C, MRV of 16,200cP @ -40C, CCS of 4,800cP. 4.1% NOACK,
2. SpectraSyn 40 - 39cSt @ 100C, 396cSt @ 40C, MRV of 102,000cP @ -26C, CCS N/A, NOACK N/A
Using the Widman visc calc, to hit our 12.9cSt target we'd need 66.3% of SpectraSyn 8 and 33.6% of SpectraSyn 40. We could use an even heavier base and move that around a bit but the resulting product of the above blend would have the following characteristics:
100C Visc: 12.9cSt
40C Visc: 90.3cSt
VI: 141
And it is quite possible for it to be below the MRV limit at -40C. It would fail CCS though.
A blend using SpectraSyn 100 instead would put us at roughly 77% SpectraSyn 8, which might yield more favourable low temp performance, but I'm not an expert so I could be completely off-base there, LOL
If you omitted any sort of DI pack, you could probably make a 0W40 with very little VII.
However as soon as you add the DI pack (typically 10%-ish of any engine oil), then your need for VII is going to ratchet up very quickly even with the very best of base oils.
However as soon as you add the DI pack (typically 10%-ish of any engine oil), then your need for VII is going to ratchet up very quickly even with the very best of base oils.
I'd say no.
Don't even most 15W-40 Conventional oils have some VII's in them? ( Both HDEO and PCMO 15W-40s )
Don't even most 15W-40 Conventional oils have some VII's in them? ( Both HDEO and PCMO 15W-40s )
Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
I'd say no.
Don't even most 15W-40 Conventional oils have some VII's in them? ( Both HDEO and PCMO 15W-40s )
A typical European 15W40 Group I/II PCMO will contain around 7.5%-ish of liquid OCP VII. A 15W40 HDDO will contain a tad more on account of its notionally higher Ashless content.
I'd say no.
Don't even most 15W-40 Conventional oils have some VII's in them? ( Both HDEO and PCMO 15W-40s )
A typical European 15W40 Group I/II PCMO will contain around 7.5%-ish of liquid OCP VII. A 15W40 HDDO will contain a tad more on account of its notionally higher Ashless content.
Without hijacking the thread, what about a 10W40 Group III oil ?
Originally Posted By: Patman
Originally Posted By: MotoTribologist
With a PAO and oil soluble PAG blend I bet I could make a 0W-40 without VI improvers. However, I wouldn't recommend putting it into an engine.
Why is that?
I'd be worried about seal compatibility, but to be honest, I rarely look as OSPs and I assume they are as picky with seals as regular PAGs are.
Originally Posted By: MotoTribologist
With a PAO and oil soluble PAG blend I bet I could make a 0W-40 without VI improvers. However, I wouldn't recommend putting it into an engine.
Why is that?
I'd be worried about seal compatibility, but to be honest, I rarely look as OSPs and I assume they are as picky with seals as regular PAGs are.
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