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Hydrogen powered blast furnace #4679360
02/27/18 03:03 AM
02/27/18 03:03 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,588
'Stralia
Shannow Online content OP
Shannow  Online Content OP
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,588
'Stralia
https://interestingengineering.com/steel-plant-in-sweden-set-to-operate-entirely-on-hydrogen-fuel

Quote:
A leading Swedish steelmaker will make the first fossil fuel-free steel plant powered by hydrogen. The company called SSAB confirmed earlier this week that plans are in place to overhaul the company's practices and technology.

This new project called HYBRIT will use hydrogen produced with electricity from fossil-free Swedish resources. The resulting emissions are water.

According to Reuters' reports, the company's global output reached upwards of 8.8 million tonnes last year. The SSAB said in a company statement that the new system could remove the greenhouse gases that made up 10 percent of Sweden's total carbon dioxide emissions and 7 percent of Finland's emissions, according to SSAB spokeswoman Viktoria Karsberg.

“After building the pilot plant we will run tests between 2020 and 2024 and then we can scale up to a demonstration plant. By 2035 we should have a ready solution for all production,” she told Reuters.


Hydrogen from electrolysis to run a smelting furnace seems absolutely bonkers...electric arc furnaces maybe less so.

Of course floating red dirt (iron ore) from Australia to Sweden doesn't make much sense either.

Re: Hydrogen powered blast furnace [Re: Shannow] #4679370
02/27/18 04:30 AM
02/27/18 04:30 AM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 226
Cincinnati, USA
Dave9 Offline
Dave9  Offline
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 226
Cincinnati, USA
Bonkers yes from a conservation perspective but from a political and social engineering perspective, they're just doing what everyone else is, trying to get government subsidies to pay for more of their power (or fuel) bill than they'd have to pay for themselves otherwise. Quote:

Quote:
"To be able to carry out this project, however, significant national contributions are still required from the state, research institutions and universities," the project's press statement said.


Why not a more efficient means? Wouldn't qualify for the *free* money, lol.

Re: Hydrogen powered blast furnace [Re: Shannow] #4679440
02/27/18 07:37 AM
02/27/18 07:37 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,304
New Jersey
JHZR2 Offline
JHZR2  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,304
New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Shannow

Hydrogen from electrolysis to run a smelting furnace seems absolutely bonkers...electric arc furnaces maybe less so.


+1. Only way to be fossil fuel free is to have traceable nuke/renewables to electrolysis, and that still has a footprint. If they are caught doing SMR or something, then its as idiotic as characterizing 12MPG SUVs as "partial zero" emissions vehicles.

Electric arc furnaces might be better, but still need the traceability or else are just a joke too.

Re: Hydrogen powered blast furnace [Re: Shannow] #4679454
02/27/18 08:05 AM
02/27/18 08:05 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,601
USA
mk378 Offline
mk378  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,601
USA
They have more hydroelectric power than they can use. This is a way to convert that to a commodity that can be sold at export.

Using coal to reduce iron ore not only produces CO2, it also leaves a lot of carbon in the product which takes additional energy to remove later.

Last edited by mk378; 02/27/18 08:10 AM.
Re: Hydrogen powered blast furnace [Re: Shannow] #4679468
02/27/18 08:32 AM
02/27/18 08:32 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 37,978
Ontario, Canada
OVERKILL Offline
OVERKILL  Offline
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 37,978
Ontario, Canada
Little presentation from back in 2008 when Bruce was looking to integrate hydrogen into their nuclear tech:

https://www.cns-snc.ca/media/uploads/branch_data/branches/Ottawa/Baindur-Slides.pdf


2018 RAM 1500 Big Horn EcoDiesel
2016 Grand Cherokee SRT
Re: Hydrogen powered blast furnace [Re: Dave9] #4679481
02/27/18 08:47 AM
02/27/18 08:47 AM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 595
Margate England
Claud Offline
Claud  Offline
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 595
Margate England
Originally Posted By: Dave9
Bonkers yes from a conservation perspective but from a political and social engineering perspective, they're just doing what everyone else is, trying to get government subsidies to pay for more of their power (or fuel) bill than they'd have to pay for themselves otherwise. Quote:

Quote:
"To be able to carry out this project, however, significant national contributions are still required from the state, research institutions and universities," the project's press statement said.


Why not a more efficient means? Wouldn't qualify for the *free* money, lol.


USA industries seem adept at gouging money from the government in the form of tax breaks and bailouts.
I shouldn't single out the USA, it is far from alone in this respect.

Claud.

Re: Hydrogen powered blast furnace [Re: Shannow] #4679499
02/27/18 09:13 AM
02/27/18 09:13 AM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,127
Texas
WyrTwister Offline
WyrTwister  Offline
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,127
Texas
Originally Posted By: Shannow
https://interestingengineering.com/steel-plant-in-sweden-set-to-operate-entirely-on-hydrogen-fuel

Quote:
A leading Swedish steelmaker will make the first fossil fuel-free steel plant powered by hydrogen. The company called SSAB confirmed earlier this week that plans are in place to overhaul the company's practices and technology.

This new project called HYBRIT will use hydrogen produced with electricity from fossil-free Swedish resources. The resulting emissions are water.

According to Reuters' reports, the company's global output reached upwards of 8.8 million tonnes last year. The SSAB said in a company statement that the new system could remove the greenhouse gases that made up 10 percent of Sweden's total carbon dioxide emissions and 7 percent of Finland's emissions, according to SSAB spokeswoman Viktoria Karsberg.

“After building the pilot plant we will run tests between 2020 and 2024 and then we can scale up to a demonstration plant. By 2035 we should have a ready solution for all production,” she told Reuters.

Hydrogen from electrolysis to run a smelting furnace seems absolutely bonkers...electric arc furnaces maybe less so.

Of course floating red dirt (iron ore) from Australia to Sweden doesn't make much sense either.

I think Sweden at one time had an abundance of hydro electric power . Read that is why they had a heavy water plant .

Read about the British attempts to deny the Germans access to the heavy water .

I know electric arc furnaces use mostly scrap steel to melt and re-purpose . Smelting iron ore is a different can of worms . Traditionally coke ( processed coal ) was used . Before that charcoal ( until England was in danger of running out of trees ) .

Re: Hydrogen powered blast furnace [Re: Shannow] #4679662
02/27/18 12:22 PM
02/27/18 12:22 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 12,651
The Motor City
Kestas Offline
Kestas  Offline
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 12,651
The Motor City
As WyrTwister said, I don't know how they are going to use hydrogen to smelt iron ore. I'm not familiar with how that will make steel. It takes more than getting something hot to change iron ore into steel.

Re: Hydrogen powered blast furnace [Re: Shannow] #4679674
02/27/18 12:40 PM
02/27/18 12:40 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,601
USA
mk378 Offline
mk378  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,601
USA
The oxygen needs to be removed from the ore by reacting it with an element that has greater affinity for oxygen than iron does. Traditionally, carbon is used. It appears that the hydrogen will also work.

Last edited by mk378; 02/27/18 12:40 PM.
Re: Hydrogen powered blast furnace [Re: Shannow] #4679807
02/27/18 04:12 PM
02/27/18 04:12 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 14,568
Silicon Valley
PandaBear Offline
PandaBear  Offline
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 14,568
Silicon Valley
Isn't that going to cause Hydrogen embitterment?

Anyways, IMO the "free" hydroelectric power can be used for data center much more efficiently than to make H2 and then blast furnace for steel. They could have build hundreds of data center and tax the electricity to provide social benefits for the local residences.

Or jump start a local tech industry.


"You keep asking questions PandaBear and you'll end up a vegetarian like my wife" - Camu Mahubah
Re: Hydrogen powered blast furnace [Re: Shannow] #4679913
02/27/18 06:39 PM
02/27/18 06:39 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 12,651
The Motor City
Kestas Offline
Kestas  Offline
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 12,651
The Motor City
Hydrogen could reduce iron ore. I'd have to dig back in my schooling to verify this. It's not popularly done on a large scale.

Hydrogen embrittlement is not a concern. Any hydrogen in the steel would be long gone with subsequent processing at the mill. Additionally, hydrogen embrittlement is typically only a concern for quench-and-tempered product with high hardness, when hydrogen has been introduced after hardening.

Re: Hydrogen powered blast furnace [Re: Shannow] #4680005
02/27/18 08:27 PM
02/27/18 08:27 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,601
USA
mk378 Offline
mk378  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,601
USA
Tech stuff is prone to bubble. Steel will always be around.

Re: Hydrogen powered blast furnace [Re: Dave9] #4680797
02/28/18 04:44 PM
02/28/18 04:44 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,591
Toronto
PeterPolyol Offline
PeterPolyol  Offline
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,591
Toronto
I'd expect more from the Swedes than just shuffling the green-washing veneer around to obscure inefficient processes for PR purposes. How else could they truthfully ring-out appealing claims like "b-b-ut the only emission is nice, clean, clear water! You like water, right? Water's nice and safe isn't it?"
Originally Posted By: Dave9

Why not a more efficient means? Wouldn't qualify for the *free* money, lol.

No kidding. Makes a person wonder who the economic forces behind these black-hole subsidies for bogus technical solutions, anyway?


Scambling for solutions is a hopelessly futile endeavour and potentially dangerous, without first coming to a solid, personal understanding of the problem. Beware riding the ideological hobby horse.
Re: Hydrogen powered blast furnace [Re: Shannow] #4681196
03/01/18 03:52 AM
03/01/18 03:52 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,588
'Stralia
Shannow Online content OP
Shannow  Online Content OP
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,588
'Stralia
http://ballard.com/about-ballard/newsroo...am-with-ballard

Companies exist to make money...they aren't our sensibility check, nor social conscience.

If money is drying up in pond a, and pond b is filling, they will go to pond b.


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