Which have improved faster - engines or oils?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Jan 11, 2007
Messages
953
Location
El Oeste
Over the last 30 years or so, motor oils have improved substantially and so have the engines they go in. But could you definitively say one has improved much faster than the other? I’d lean towards oils, but it’s nothing more than a hunch.

Related: Which would last longer? An average 1980 engine run solely on today’s oils, or an average 2018 engine run on 1980s motor oils?

Was just looking at an ad for a 1985 Caddy and it got me thinking about what the ceiling would be for an engine of that era if a guy bought it and fed it today’s best oils.
 
Well sorry to say the last few years engines have started going the other way. That's why I'm still driving my 2004 Toyota changing wouldn't be a gain. When the car industry figures that out they won't be able to build enough cars.
 
A 1980 era engine with all the burgeoning air pollution junk the govt was requiring? Nope. Today’s engines for the most part are much better but that depends on the manufacturer.

Oil has definitely improved as well. As for running one era with another, I wouldn’t. I still remember the Quaker State fiasco, having seen it in person.
 
Oil seems to be much better. I remember going into the 90's thinking 100k was a good lifespan for an engine.

Today it does seem to be going backwards, cleaning deposits off intake valves etc. But I'm not sure if that work (intake cleaning, PCV cleaning, whatever comes up these days) comes close to what was required in the bad old days (3k OCI's, plugs ever 10k, carb rebuilds, timing & dwell & points, timing chain stretch & nylon gears, hard starting and frequent stalling if the carb got out of whack, timing belt changes, etc). IMO some of this DI and AFM stuff may well be just teething pains--plenty of anecdotal evidence here indicating they can go to high miles without extra work. So even my "thought" that we are going backwards might be misplaced, based on internet amplification.
 
I got too go with oils. Just take a look at ALL the spec changes the last 10 years or so. Todays engine and EPA demands have created an environment where engine oil technology HAS to step it up.

Conversely perhaps:
I'd have to go with todays engines and yesterdays oil, because of base stocks. Now you would have to change your oil more often.
 
I’d say that engines are changing faster than oils and the increasingly complex engine lubrication requrements are the driving force behind oil progress.
 
The 1980s engines weren't required to last as long for the emission requirement.
 
The 1980s engines weren't required to last as long for the emission requirement.
 
Originally Posted By: supton
....in the bad old days (3k OCI's, plugs ever 10k, carb rebuilds, timing & dwell & points, timing chain stretch & nylon gears, hard starting and frequent stalling if the carb got out of whack, timing belt changes, etc....


Two other criteria:

1) Machining is WAAAAAAY better. The average engine builder guy can NOT build an engine now-a-days as well as the factory with all the CNC machines and robots keeping tolerances down very tight.

If you saw engines being built in the 70's all 8 holes in the block were honed to a different size, and the assembly guy had different shelves of pistons (A size 3.997", B size 3.999", C size 4.001" etc etc.) to fit the small and large holes... and they often did NOT care if they didn't have the right size needed. same with valve guides, etc etc etc

2) The metallurgy is WAAAAAAY better. The cams in MOST OHC engines ride right on machined holes in the cylinder heads themselves - NO BEARINGS! I grew up in the 70's and there was NO american V8 engines built that went to 150,000 without some oil consumption and a pretty decent loss of power. Now, we have Ford and Chevy (sorry dodge) truck engines going to 300,000 **A L L . T H E . T I M E** .... it's very common. That NEVER happened 30 years ago.

Now, I am pretty easy on my 2008 F150 4.6 - - I think that engine would handle SE, SF, or SG oil just fine without burning up. I do know a LOT of diesel engines that went 10,000(!) hours in the 70's and 80's on CC/CD oils!!!

So..... engines are designed, machined and assembled much much much much better, and *most* would handle the mileage just fine, even on older oils (Sorry toyota).
 
I'd say oils have progressed farther and faster: base stocks and additives are doing more with less compared to conventional wisdom- less ZDDP, less calcium, etc... and the fact they are all backwards compatible to use on older engines.

Conversely, about the only things that have truly changed is GDI and the elimination of flat tappets. Bearings are still bearings, roller tappets still roll, injectors still spray fuel and spark plugs still light the candles. I'm pretty sure you could take a 2018 engine and try to run it on some SJ and would have issues in short order... but you could likely run an engine from 1995 for 300k on some D1G2 without issue.
 
The oil's today are great and definitely help out the 80'engines, but for whatever reason you would often see oil burning cars in the early 80's. Oil burners are not as common today. On the other hand, moving forward with AFM (GM's acronym for cylinder cut out), has caused some problems. They finally changed the design in the V-8's in 2014 and spec'd Dexos oil. There is pressure to get better mileage and sometimes we have issues. Better engines. Not sure. Complicated engines? Definitely.
 
Last edited:
I would say it depends...I think oils like Mobil 1 and Amsoil were ahead of the game in the 70's and at that time engines were by and large pretty poor comparend to a modern engine. However i think some of today's DI small displacement, high revving and force indicted engines are ahead of the game and oil specs are constantly playing catch up.

Take a look at a 95 civic with a port FI 1.6L engine that was easy on oil and could run virtually forever on a modern oil and compare it to todays 1.5L high compression DI and TurboCharged engine that I believe Is a challenge for todays best oils.
 
Last edited:
Engines are just becoming more demanding (better?) so I'd say the oils.
Not everyone in the 80s had [censored] poor machining, alloys and foundry work, it's just that the demand for quality, durable engines has FORCED the traditional slackers and purveyors of sloppy junk to get up to speed.
The oils are just so good now though
thumbsup2.gif
 
Engines and oils in the last 20 years have pretty much evolved together, driven by fuel economy and OBD regulations. The engine manufacturers and oil formulators get together in the API oil committee and decide what characteristics the oil must have. Then the new oils are tested in the new engines starting about 3 years before the target production date. Issues that come up during the validation test program are addressed by engine and oil spec changes, and hopefully by the time production starts, there are no serious issues that lead to a major recall. About 3 iterations of build, test, analyze, and fix are done before production.
 
Originally Posted By: andyd
Better engines are driving the need for better oils. Electronic engine mgt pretty much doubled engine life


^^This

I wouldn't say that advanced engine management doubled engine life, but it certainly extended it, especially for the average non-car guy who didn't then and doesn't now do any PM beyond maybe having the oil changed at some irregular too long interval.
Improved quality control in engine manufacturing played a role, with Honda and Toyota leading the way and showing how it only made sense in reducing labor and warranty costs and oils played a role as well, with the watershed event for motor oil probably being the universal adoption of Grp II (or better) hydrocracked basestocks in this market.
Better engine management hardware and software was probably the primary contributor to longer typical engine life in the hands of John and Jane Doe, however.
 
We know metallurgy like we knew it forty years ago. We're still trying to figure out how to get an iron liner in an aluminum block.
lol.gif


Then we'll deliberately make short piston skirts that rattle when cold, or non-draining rings that coke up and burn oil, or DI valve problems that could be reversed with a traditional "wet" injector. Engineers are the same arrogant humans they were 40 years ago and the tug-of-war between them and the bean-counters is the same as it's always been.

Corvettes used to come with oil coolers, then they decided that they could just print "use Mobil 1" on the cap and scrap the cooler. Great. But I want to use Mobil 1 *and* the cooler.

And I agree with others who note we're asking less displacement to do more and how is that a good thing? Make the car lighter and the driving test harder.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top