Flash Point and NOACK

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Does an oil's flash point have any direct relationship to NOACK? I would think that the higher the flash point, the lower the NOACK, but in my limited research, that doesn't seem to bear a relationship. I don't have enough data to really know, though.
 
One thing of note... If the frying pan has been "seasoned" then it is much, much more accurate
lol.gif
 
Eggs scrambled in Mobil 1 5W-30. French fries done in Valvoline, turkeys deep fried in Quaker State......
 
Rubbed on is better... Especially bacon grease. That's the best seasoning of a frying pan you can get.
 
Originally Posted By: Boomer
Eggs scrambled in Mobil 1 5W-30. French fries done in Valvoline, turkeys deep fried in Quaker State......
lol.gif


Safety Moment. Don’t overfill the with the Quaker State or else you’ll really check out the flash point when you drop the turkey in.
 
Originally Posted By: Snagglefoot
Originally Posted By: Boomer
Eggs scrambled in Mobil 1 5W-30. French fries done in Valvoline, turkeys deep fried in Quaker State......
lol.gif


Safety Moment. Don’t overfill the with the Quaker State or else you’ll really check out the flash point when you drop the turkey in.


Indeed ~ you are supposed to do a displacement test with 0w16 and then dispose of that oil …
 
Originally Posted By: IndyFan
Does an oil's flash point have any direct relationship to NOACK? I would think that the higher the flash point, the lower the NOACK, but in my limited research, that doesn't seem to bear a relationship. I don't have enough data to really know, though.


We haven't had a NOACK Check thread in a while here. I wonder what conventionals and which synthetics have the best NOACK numbers these days also.
 
If the volatility vs flash point were plotted for PAO 4, 6, 8, and 10 cSt viscosities, I would expect a curve could be fitted through the points with all points close to the curve. If the same was done but using Group II, I would expect the curve to not fit through the points as well as they do with PAO, because of less consistency in molecule type and size in Group II. With motor oils containing a variety of base oil types and viscosities of each type as well as additive carrier oil and additives, I would expect a trend to still show in the viscosity vs flashpoint plot, but expect it to have considerably more outliers than I’d expect in the plots of purely base oils of same type.

One thing that will cause outliers is an oil with a small percentage of relatively high volatility. It will evaporate rapidly in the flash point test, decreasing flash point. In the NOACK test, it will evaporate out early in the test and the test keeps going without this volatile portion continuing to cause mass loss.

I would be interested in seeing someone make the plot with a bunch of different brands of motor oils.
 
Flash point by ASTM D 92 is influenced by volatility and flammability. It is run under a hood to avoid air movement over the oil surface and the temperature is slowly increased at a prescribed rate until a flash appears on the oil surface when a flame is passed over.

Noack by ASTM D 5800 only measures volatility. The oil is heated rapidly, held at a constant temperature, and has air flowing over the oil surface. While both tests are influenced by volatility, the other significant variables negate any useful correlation.

Tom NJ
 
Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Flash point by ASTM D 92 is influenced by volatility and flammability. It is run under a hood to avoid air movement over the oil surface and the temperature is slowly increased at a prescribed rate until a flash appears on the oil surface when a flame is passed over.

Noack by ASTM D 5800 only measures volatility. The oil is heated rapidly, held at a constant temperature, and has air flowing over the oil surface. While both tests are influenced by volatility, the other significant variables negate any useful correlation.

Tom NJ


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Great job explaining it.
 
Originally Posted By: Triple_Se7en
We haven't had a NOACK Check thread in a while here. I wonder what conventionals and which synthetics have the best NOACK numbers these days also.


I wonder the same thing.

Pennz Ultra Platinum GTL oils used to be really low NOACK, now they are up around where everybody else is.
 
Originally Posted By: IndyFan
If you have no data to support your conclusion that there is no relationship, please say so. I think it is a valid question, for no other reason than curiosity.


Nope, papers that prove such, for some reason are pretty far between...

My argument was based on the fact that it takes very little low flash point product in the bulk to make a big difference in flash point. You can see that in UOA, where a percent of fuel dilution is pretty marked in lowering the flash point.

Bu it's only around 1/12 of the volume loss of a typical NOACK test...e.g. the marked reduction in flash point would be maybe a 13% versus 12% NOACK test.

Like I said, Flash point is the point at which ignition occurs under the various test methods, NOACK is the amount that disappears over time.
 
From manufacturer's data sheets...Only ones that I could find reliably was Amsoil signature and Citgo


Amsoil only...


Citgo only



So
* the Amsoil shows that you can have quite a significant range of NOACK over a narrow flash point band.
* the Citgo shows that you can have a fairly constant NOACK volatility over a wide range of flash points.

So it would appear that the "direct" correlation isn't there for these range of oils.
 
Thank you, Shannow, for finding some data and plotting it. I looked for additional motor oil data and couldn’t find any other brands’ data sheets that showed volatility and flash point.

I did find the data for two types of PAO in various viscosities and it looks like it forms a much better trend than the data you found, which is what I expect. I didn’t plot it since I am using my phone, not a computer with Excel. Here it is: http://www.cpchem.com/bl/pao/en-us/Pages/LowViscosityPAO.aspx
 
NOACK and Flashpoint are only directly related in that they both require the process of volatilization to enable measurement.

Nonetheless, given the CP base oil chart, it seems that neat base oils of varying viscosity display some correlation and I'd imagine that's due to the purity of the base oils, where the only real differences are hydrocarbon molecular weight.

For finished lubes, I wouldn't not expect to see lockstep correlation, though by circumstance there may be apparent correlation. Interesting topic
 
Originally Posted By: JAG
Thank you, Shannow, for finding some data and plotting it. I looked for additional motor oil data and couldn’t find any other brands’ data sheets that showed volatility and flash point.

I did find the data for two types of PAO in various viscosities and it looks like it forms a much better trend than the data you found, which is what I expect. I didn’t plot it since I am using my phone, not a computer with Excel. Here it is: http://www.cpchem.com/bl/pao/en-us/Pages/LowViscosityPAO.aspx

 
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