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#4676120 - 02/24/18 06:32 AM Flash Point and NOACK
IndyFan Offline


Registered: 06/16/05
Posts: 505
Loc: Danville, Indiana
Does an oil's flash point have any direct relationship to NOACK? I would think that the higher the flash point, the lower the NOACK, but in my limited research, that doesn't seem to bear a relationship. I don't have enough data to really know, though.
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#4676127 - 02/24/18 06:47 AM Re: Flash Point and NOACK [Re: IndyFan]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 39045
Loc: 'Stralia
Flash point is the point at which the substance catches fire. (Couple of variants)

NOACk is a loss of mass over time.

Nowhere near the same, but you were there anyway.

Now RAT540 has his own test, akin to a frying pan over a hotplate that really seems to have set the bar that the API, SAE, all the OEMs et al have missed all along.

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#4676128 - 02/24/18 06:48 AM Re: Flash Point and NOACK [Re: IndyFan]
SubieRubyRoo Online   content


Registered: 05/14/12
Posts: 889
Loc: Winchester, Indiana
Ouch.

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#4676156 - 02/24/18 07:23 AM Re: Flash Point and NOACK [Re: Shannow]
bbhero Online   content


Registered: 03/20/15
Posts: 4392
Loc: Virginia
One thing of note... If the frying pan has been "seasoned" then it is much, much more accurate LOL
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#4676160 - 02/24/18 07:27 AM Re: Flash Point and NOACK [Re: IndyFan]
edwardh1 Offline


Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 2851
Loc: Coastal South Carolina
is there a difference between rubbed on and sprayed on seasoning?
I read that the sprayed on has less additives


Edited by edwardh1 (02/24/18 07:28 AM)
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#4676165 - 02/24/18 07:34 AM Re: Flash Point and NOACK [Re: IndyFan]
Boomer Offline


Registered: 09/19/08
Posts: 1912
Loc: Pennsylvania
Eggs scrambled in Mobil 1 5W-30. French fries done in Valvoline, turkeys deep fried in Quaker State......
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#4676168 - 02/24/18 07:37 AM Re: Flash Point and NOACK [Re: edwardh1]
bbhero Online   content


Registered: 03/20/15
Posts: 4392
Loc: Virginia
Rubbed on is better... Especially bacon grease. That's the best seasoning of a frying pan you can get.
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#4676170 - 02/24/18 07:42 AM Re: Flash Point and NOACK [Re: Shannow]
IndyFan Offline


Registered: 06/16/05
Posts: 505
Loc: Danville, Indiana
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Flash point is the point at which the substance catches fire. (Couple of variants)

NOACk is a loss of mass over time.

Nowhere near the same, but you were there anyway.

Now RAT540 has his own test, akin to a frying pan over a hotplate that really seems to have set the bar that the API, SAE, all the OEMs et al have missed all along.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but NOACK test involves heat, right? Heat accelerates evaporation. I'd say that is reason enough to ask the question if there is a relationship. Show me the data you have that demonstrates there is no relationship, please.

Also read more carefully. The question was not if they are the same. It was if there is a relationship, or, for example, a pattern such as oils with low NOACK typically having higher flash points, or not.

If you have no data to support your conclusion that there is no relationship, please say so. I think it is a valid question, for no other reason than curiosity.


Edited by IndyFan (02/24/18 07:44 AM)
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#4676203 - 02/24/18 08:16 AM Re: Flash Point and NOACK [Re: Boomer]
Snagglefoot Online   content


Registered: 12/31/17
Posts: 1309
Loc: Alberta
Originally Posted By: Boomer
Eggs scrambled in Mobil 1 5W-30. French fries done in Valvoline, turkeys deep fried in Quaker State......
LOL

Safety Moment. Donít overfill the with the Quaker State or else youíll really check out the flash point when you drop the turkey in.

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#4676205 - 02/24/18 08:20 AM Re: Flash Point and NOACK [Re: Snagglefoot]
4WD Offline


Registered: 09/21/10
Posts: 6027
Loc: Texas/International
Originally Posted By: Snagglefoot
Originally Posted By: Boomer
Eggs scrambled in Mobil 1 5W-30. French fries done in Valvoline, turkeys deep fried in Quaker State......
LOL

Safety Moment. Donít overfill the with the Quaker State or else youíll really check out the flash point when you drop the turkey in.


Indeed ~ you are supposed to do a displacement test with 0w16 and then dispose of that oil Ö
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#4676334 - 02/24/18 10:21 AM Re: Flash Point and NOACK [Re: IndyFan]
Triple_Se7en Offline


Registered: 12/04/04
Posts: 8587
Loc: 1/2 hr. north of Detroit
Originally Posted By: IndyFan
Does an oil's flash point have any direct relationship to NOACK? I would think that the higher the flash point, the lower the NOACK, but in my limited research, that doesn't seem to bear a relationship. I don't have enough data to really know, though.


We haven't had a NOACK Check thread in a while here. I wonder what conventionals and which synthetics have the best NOACK numbers these days also.

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#4676355 - 02/24/18 10:47 AM Re: Flash Point and NOACK [Re: IndyFan]
JAG Offline


Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 4667
Loc: Fredericksburg, VA
If the volatility vs flash point were plotted for PAO 4, 6, 8, and 10 cSt viscosities, I would expect a curve could be fitted through the points with all points close to the curve. If the same was done but using Group II, I would expect the curve to not fit through the points as well as they do with PAO, because of less consistency in molecule type and size in Group II. With motor oils containing a variety of base oil types and viscosities of each type as well as additive carrier oil and additives, I would expect a trend to still show in the viscosity vs flashpoint plot, but expect it to have considerably more outliers than Iíd expect in the plots of purely base oils of same type.

One thing that will cause outliers is an oil with a small percentage of relatively high volatility. It will evaporate rapidly in the flash point test, decreasing flash point. In the NOACK test, it will evaporate out early in the test and the test keeps going without this volatile portion continuing to cause mass loss.

I would be interested in seeing someone make the plot with a bunch of different brands of motor oils.

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#4676373 - 02/24/18 11:02 AM Re: Flash Point and NOACK [Re: IndyFan]
Tom NJ Offline


Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 2048
Loc: Virginia
Flash point by ASTM D 92 is influenced by volatility and flammability. It is run under a hood to avoid air movement over the oil surface and the temperature is slowly increased at a prescribed rate until a flash appears on the oil surface when a flame is passed over.

Noack by ASTM D 5800 only measures volatility. The oil is heated rapidly, held at a constant temperature, and has air flowing over the oil surface. While both tests are influenced by volatility, the other significant variables negate any useful correlation.

Tom NJ

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#4676376 - 02/24/18 11:05 AM Re: Flash Point and NOACK [Re: Tom NJ]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 36000
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Flash point by ASTM D 92 is influenced by volatility and flammability. It is run under a hood to avoid air movement over the oil surface and the temperature is slowly increased at a prescribed rate until a flash appears on the oil surface when a flame is passed over.

Noack by ASTM D 5800 only measures volatility. The oil is heated rapidly, held at a constant temperature, and has air flowing over the oil surface. While both tests are influenced by volatility, the other significant variables negate any useful correlation.

Tom NJ


thumbsup

Great job explaining it.
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#4676380 - 02/24/18 11:13 AM Re: Flash Point and NOACK [Re: IndyFan]
d00df00d Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 11126
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: IndyFan
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Flash point is the point at which the substance catches fire. (Couple of variants)

NOACk is a loss of mass over time.

Nowhere near the same, but you were there anyway.

Now RAT540 has his own test, akin to a frying pan over a hotplate that really seems to have set the bar that the API, SAE, all the OEMs et al have missed all along.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but NOACK test involves heat, right? Heat accelerates evaporation. I'd say that is reason enough to ask the question if there is a relationship. Show me the data you have that demonstrates there is no relationship, please.

Also read more carefully. The question was not if they are the same. It was if there is a relationship, or, for example, a pattern such as oils with low NOACK typically having higher flash points, or not.

If you have no data to support your conclusion that there is no relationship, please say so. I think it is a valid question, for no other reason than curiosity.

You asked whether there's a relationship, and then said you suspected there wasn't. He confirmed that.

Glad you asked for more detail. Probably better to ask before you insinuate that one of the most highly-regarded members of this forum isn't capable of delivering it.
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