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Flash Point and NOACK #4676120
02/24/18 07:32 AM
02/24/18 07:32 AM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 886
Danville, Indiana
IndyFan Offline OP
IndyFan  Offline OP

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 886
Danville, Indiana
Does an oil's flash point have any direct relationship to NOACK? I would think that the higher the flash point, the lower the NOACK, but in my limited research, that doesn't seem to bear a relationship. I don't have enough data to really know, though.


18 Jeep JLUR Wrangler 3.6 15k
15 Ford Transit 106k, Reman 3.5 @85k
08 Jeep Wrangler 3.8 127k
01 Ford F150 Crew 5.4 90k
99 Mercedes E430 Sport 90k
Re: Flash Point and NOACK [Re: IndyFan] #4676127
02/24/18 07:47 AM
02/24/18 07:47 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,524
'Stralia
Shannow Online content
Shannow  Online Content

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,524
'Stralia
Flash point is the point at which the substance catches fire. (Couple of variants)

NOACk is a loss of mass over time.

Nowhere near the same, but you were there anyway.

Now RAT540 has his own test, akin to a frying pan over a hotplate that really seems to have set the bar that the API, SAE, all the OEMs et al have missed all along.

Re: Flash Point and NOACK [Re: IndyFan] #4676128
02/24/18 07:48 AM
02/24/18 07:48 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 2,444
The land of USA-made Subies!
SubieRubyRoo Offline
SubieRubyRoo  Offline

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 2,444
The land of USA-made Subies!
Ouch.

Re: Flash Point and NOACK [Re: Shannow] #4676156
02/24/18 08:23 AM
02/24/18 08:23 AM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 5,868
Virginia
bbhero Offline
bbhero  Offline

Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 5,868
Virginia
One thing of note... If the frying pan has been "seasoned" then it is much, much more accurate LOL


Nissan Altima 3.5 Coupe
Mobil Super 5w30 Wix 57356
"Treat your family like your friends and treat your friends like your family."
Re: Flash Point and NOACK [Re: IndyFan] #4676160
02/24/18 08:27 AM
02/24/18 08:27 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,185
Coastal South Carolina
edwardh1 Offline
edwardh1  Offline

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,185
Coastal South Carolina
is there a difference between rubbed on and sprayed on seasoning?
I read that the sprayed on has less additives

Last edited by edwardh1; 02/24/18 08:28 AM.

These products are all new every year?? They are a revolution!!! Razor blades, mens shirts, TVs, wiper blades, gutter guards, hearing aids... according to the ads. But also all new last year
Re: Flash Point and NOACK [Re: IndyFan] #4676165
02/24/18 08:34 AM
02/24/18 08:34 AM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,034
Pennsylvania
Boomer Offline
Boomer  Offline

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,034
Pennsylvania
Eggs scrambled in Mobil 1 5W-30. French fries done in Valvoline, turkeys deep fried in Quaker State......


2013 VW Passat TDI SE, 63,600 miles Castrol Professional VW507 5W-30
2017 VW Golf All Track 20,370 miles Castrol Professional VW505 5W-40
Re: Flash Point and NOACK [Re: edwardh1] #4676168
02/24/18 08:37 AM
02/24/18 08:37 AM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 5,868
Virginia
bbhero Offline
bbhero  Offline

Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 5,868
Virginia
Rubbed on is better... Especially bacon grease. That's the best seasoning of a frying pan you can get.


Nissan Altima 3.5 Coupe
Mobil Super 5w30 Wix 57356
"Treat your family like your friends and treat your friends like your family."
Re: Flash Point and NOACK [Re: Shannow] #4676170
02/24/18 08:42 AM
02/24/18 08:42 AM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 886
Danville, Indiana
IndyFan Offline OP
IndyFan  Offline OP

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 886
Danville, Indiana
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Flash point is the point at which the substance catches fire. (Couple of variants)

NOACk is a loss of mass over time.

Nowhere near the same, but you were there anyway.

Now RAT540 has his own test, akin to a frying pan over a hotplate that really seems to have set the bar that the API, SAE, all the OEMs et al have missed all along.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but NOACK test involves heat, right? Heat accelerates evaporation. I'd say that is reason enough to ask the question if there is a relationship. Show me the data you have that demonstrates there is no relationship, please.

Also read more carefully. The question was not if they are the same. It was if there is a relationship, or, for example, a pattern such as oils with low NOACK typically having higher flash points, or not.

If you have no data to support your conclusion that there is no relationship, please say so. I think it is a valid question, for no other reason than curiosity.

Last edited by IndyFan; 02/24/18 08:44 AM.

18 Jeep JLUR Wrangler 3.6 15k
15 Ford Transit 106k, Reman 3.5 @85k
08 Jeep Wrangler 3.8 127k
01 Ford F150 Crew 5.4 90k
99 Mercedes E430 Sport 90k
Re: Flash Point and NOACK [Re: Boomer] #4676203
02/24/18 09:16 AM
02/24/18 09:16 AM
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 3,917
SE British Columbia, Canada
Snagglefoot Offline
Snagglefoot  Offline

Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 3,917
SE British Columbia, Canada
Originally Posted By: Boomer
Eggs scrambled in Mobil 1 5W-30. French fries done in Valvoline, turkeys deep fried in Quaker State......
LOL

Safety Moment. Donít overfill the with the Quaker State or else youíll really check out the flash point when you drop the turkey in.


If you want the job done right......do it yourself.
Re: Flash Point and NOACK [Re: Snagglefoot] #4676205
02/24/18 09:20 AM
02/24/18 09:20 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,174
Texas
4WD Offline
4WD  Offline

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,174
Texas
Originally Posted By: Snagglefoot
Originally Posted By: Boomer
Eggs scrambled in Mobil 1 5W-30. French fries done in Valvoline, turkeys deep fried in Quaker State......
LOL

Safety Moment. Donít overfill the with the Quaker State or else youíll really check out the flash point when you drop the turkey in.


Indeed ~ you are supposed to do a displacement test with 0w16 and then dispose of that oil Ö

Re: Flash Point and NOACK [Re: IndyFan] #4676334
02/24/18 11:21 AM
02/24/18 11:21 AM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,322
1/2 hr N.E. of Detroit
Triple_Se7en Offline
Triple_Se7en  Offline

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,322
1/2 hr N.E. of Detroit
Originally Posted By: IndyFan
Does an oil's flash point have any direct relationship to NOACK? I would think that the higher the flash point, the lower the NOACK, but in my limited research, that doesn't seem to bear a relationship. I don't have enough data to really know, though.


We haven't had a NOACK Check thread in a while here. I wonder what conventionals and which synthetics have the best NOACK numbers these days also.


2019 Hyundai SantaFe 2.4 factory fill QS 5w20 / Factory OEM oil filter
04 Chev Colorado 3.5 QS / Valv syn 5w30 blend K&N filter
03 Chev Malibu 3.1 QS / Valv Syn 5w30 blend Fram EG filter
Re: Flash Point and NOACK [Re: IndyFan] #4676355
02/24/18 11:47 AM
02/24/18 11:47 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,178
Fredericksburg, VA
JAG Offline
JAG  Offline

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,178
Fredericksburg, VA
If the volatility vs flash point were plotted for PAO 4, 6, 8, and 10 cSt viscosities, I would expect a curve could be fitted through the points with all points close to the curve. If the same was done but using Group II, I would expect the curve to not fit through the points as well as they do with PAO, because of less consistency in molecule type and size in Group II. With motor oils containing a variety of base oil types and viscosities of each type as well as additive carrier oil and additives, I would expect a trend to still show in the viscosity vs flashpoint plot, but expect it to have considerably more outliers than Iíd expect in the plots of purely base oils of same type.

One thing that will cause outliers is an oil with a small percentage of relatively high volatility. It will evaporate rapidly in the flash point test, decreasing flash point. In the NOACK test, it will evaporate out early in the test and the test keeps going without this volatile portion continuing to cause mass loss.

I would be interested in seeing someone make the plot with a bunch of different brands of motor oils.

Re: Flash Point and NOACK [Re: IndyFan] #4676373
02/24/18 12:02 PM
02/24/18 12:02 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,174
Virginia
Tom NJ Offline
Tom NJ  Offline

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,174
Virginia
Flash point by ASTM D 92 is influenced by volatility and flammability. It is run under a hood to avoid air movement over the oil surface and the temperature is slowly increased at a prescribed rate until a flash appears on the oil surface when a flame is passed over.

Noack by ASTM D 5800 only measures volatility. The oil is heated rapidly, held at a constant temperature, and has air flowing over the oil surface. While both tests are influenced by volatility, the other significant variables negate any useful correlation.

Tom NJ

Re: Flash Point and NOACK [Re: Tom NJ] #4676376
02/24/18 12:05 PM
02/24/18 12:05 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 39,130
Ontario, Canada
OVERKILL Online content
OVERKILL  Online Content

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 39,130
Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Flash point by ASTM D 92 is influenced by volatility and flammability. It is run under a hood to avoid air movement over the oil surface and the temperature is slowly increased at a prescribed rate until a flash appears on the oil surface when a flame is passed over.

Noack by ASTM D 5800 only measures volatility. The oil is heated rapidly, held at a constant temperature, and has air flowing over the oil surface. While both tests are influenced by volatility, the other significant variables negate any useful correlation.

Tom NJ


thumbsup

Great job explaining it.


2019 RAM 1500 Sport - Mobil 1 EP 0w-20, FRAM Ultra
2016 Grand Cherokee SRT - Castrol Edge 0w-40, FRAM Ultra
Re: Flash Point and NOACK [Re: IndyFan] #4676380
02/24/18 12:13 PM
02/24/18 12:13 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 11,550
PA
d00df00d Offline
d00df00d  Offline

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 11,550
PA
Originally Posted By: IndyFan
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Flash point is the point at which the substance catches fire. (Couple of variants)

NOACk is a loss of mass over time.

Nowhere near the same, but you were there anyway.

Now RAT540 has his own test, akin to a frying pan over a hotplate that really seems to have set the bar that the API, SAE, all the OEMs et al have missed all along.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but NOACK test involves heat, right? Heat accelerates evaporation. I'd say that is reason enough to ask the question if there is a relationship. Show me the data you have that demonstrates there is no relationship, please.

Also read more carefully. The question was not if they are the same. It was if there is a relationship, or, for example, a pattern such as oils with low NOACK typically having higher flash points, or not.

If you have no data to support your conclusion that there is no relationship, please say so. I think it is a valid question, for no other reason than curiosity.

You asked whether there's a relationship, and then said you suspected there wasn't. He confirmed that.

Glad you asked for more detail. Probably better to ask before you insinuate that one of the most highly-regarded members of this forum isn't capable of delivering it.


2008 BMW M3 Sedan 6MT
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