Diesel Ban? Germany
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Let them ban diesels from city centers. I hope they achieve the estimated net benefit they expect, whatever that is.
I think on balance, this needs to happen.
My daughter works in central London and just like Berlin & Paris, on occasions, ground level NOx levels are outrageously & dangerously high. Working in a city should not mean she automatically bears the risk of a premature death. These are first world cities; not Mumbai or Beijing!
In a way it's a shame that it's ended up coming to this with diesels. Europe has historically been very pro-diesel on the grounds of both efficiency & CO2 reduction. However both the OEMs and certain diesel owners have blatantly stuck two fingers up to environmental rules, either by rigging the mandatory emissions control systems not to work or by not replacing DPF innards once they block up. It also doesn't help that there are still a lot of older diesels on the roads that predate the fitting of emission controls which throw out a disproportionate amount of grot.
TBH, if these rules are enacted, it's not going to be the end of civilization as we know it. People who regularly drive/commute into cities will simply buy a small, cheap, efficient & environmentally friendly petrol car & keep their diesels for long, non-city drags up the motorway.
My daughter works in central London and just like Berlin & Paris, on occasions, ground level NOx levels are outrageously & dangerously high. Working in a city should not mean she automatically bears the risk of a premature death. These are first world cities; not Mumbai or Beijing!
In a way it's a shame that it's ended up coming to this with diesels. Europe has historically been very pro-diesel on the grounds of both efficiency & CO2 reduction. However both the OEMs and certain diesel owners have blatantly stuck two fingers up to environmental rules, either by rigging the mandatory emissions control systems not to work or by not replacing DPF innards once they block up. It also doesn't help that there are still a lot of older diesels on the roads that predate the fitting of emission controls which throw out a disproportionate amount of grot.
TBH, if these rules are enacted, it's not going to be the end of civilization as we know it. People who regularly drive/commute into cities will simply buy a small, cheap, efficient & environmentally friendly petrol car & keep their diesels for long, non-city drags up the motorway.
OVERKILL
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Ahhh yes, the solution is electric busses, which will be charged from power generated by coal. This should be interesting to watch unfold.
wemay
Site Donor 2023
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
I think on balance, this needs to happen.
My daughter works in central London and just like Berlin & Paris, on occasions, ground level NOx levels are outrageously & dangerously high. Working in a city should not mean she automatically bears the risk of a premature death. These are first world cities; not Mumbai or Beijing!
In a way it's a shame that it's ended up coming to this with diesels. Europe has historically been very pro-diesel on the grounds of both efficiency & CO2 reduction. However both the OEMs and certain diesel owners have blatantly stuck two fingers up to environmental rules, either by rigging the mandatory emissions control systems not to work or by not replacing DPF innards once they block up. It also doesn't help that there are still a lot of older diesels on the roads that predate the fitting of emission controls which throw out a disproportionate amount of grot.
TBH, if these rules are enacted, it's not going to be the end of civilization as we know it. People who regularly drive/commute into cities will simply buy a small, cheap, efficient & environmentally friendly petrol car & keep their diesels for long, non-city drags up the motorway.
+1
I think on balance, this needs to happen.
My daughter works in central London and just like Berlin & Paris, on occasions, ground level NOx levels are outrageously & dangerously high. Working in a city should not mean she automatically bears the risk of a premature death. These are first world cities; not Mumbai or Beijing!
In a way it's a shame that it's ended up coming to this with diesels. Europe has historically been very pro-diesel on the grounds of both efficiency & CO2 reduction. However both the OEMs and certain diesel owners have blatantly stuck two fingers up to environmental rules, either by rigging the mandatory emissions control systems not to work or by not replacing DPF innards once they block up. It also doesn't help that there are still a lot of older diesels on the roads that predate the fitting of emission controls which throw out a disproportionate amount of grot.
TBH, if these rules are enacted, it's not going to be the end of civilization as we know it. People who regularly drive/commute into cities will simply buy a small, cheap, efficient & environmentally friendly petrol car & keep their diesels for long, non-city drags up the motorway.
+1
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Ahhh yes, the solution is electric busses, which will be charged from power generated by coal. This should be interesting to watch unfold.
Only about 37% coal according to 2017 data ive seen. Renewables are at 33% in germany, nuclear 12%, and the rest gas or other.
Ahhh yes, the solution is electric busses, which will be charged from power generated by coal. This should be interesting to watch unfold.
Only about 37% coal according to 2017 data ive seen. Renewables are at 33% in germany, nuclear 12%, and the rest gas or other.
This is just another trend for the tree huggers, more of a hissy fit they throw now and then to get their life validated...
Diesel cars have never been so clean and efficient as they are now.
Unless they can sell me an electric hatchback for less than 20K euro out the door that can do the equivalent 6L/100Km in mix traffic with a heavy foot, that can be recharged in 10 min and go at least 500 Km in the real world (not the lab estimated [censored] with no lights, no heating or audio down a gentle hill with some light back breeze), all I have to say to the legislators is a big G F Y.
Diesel cars have never been so clean and efficient as they are now.
Unless they can sell me an electric hatchback for less than 20K euro out the door that can do the equivalent 6L/100Km in mix traffic with a heavy foot, that can be recharged in 10 min and go at least 500 Km in the real world (not the lab estimated [censored] with no lights, no heating or audio down a gentle hill with some light back breeze), all I have to say to the legislators is a big G F Y.
Tell the young green folks that they need to give up internal combustion powered vehicles to keep the air clean and they will be all for it and scold those who aren't.
Try telling them that they need to lower the thermostat in the winter and go without A/C in the summer to keep the air clean and they will be rioting in the streets.
Try telling them that they need to lower the thermostat in the winter and go without A/C in the summer to keep the air clean and they will be rioting in the streets.
Easy answer is zero vehicles in the danger zone.
Shank's pony is the only answer inside the perimeter, unless you value the people who work in (say London), who have higher incomes than the serfs in the outer districts.
eliminate fossil fuels, and there would be no reason whatsoever to commute to London. London would no longer be receiving her tribute.
Shank's pony is the only answer inside the perimeter, unless you value the people who work in (say London), who have higher incomes than the serfs in the outer districts.
eliminate fossil fuels, and there would be no reason whatsoever to commute to London. London would no longer be receiving her tribute.
Germany is having to face up to a problem that every major city in the world will have to deal with sometime.
Should we be free to buy machines that create environmental problems?. Every vehicle built does this to greater or lesser degree.
Do we pass legislation draconian enough to prevent this?.
Tough call. I don't know the right answer.
We can deride tree huggers. Until "we take all the trees, put 'em in a tree museum,
Then charge the people a dollar an a half just to see 'em"
We can deride the global warming deniers. Until the worlds economies collapse as industry grinds to a halt.
The worst we can do is fool ourselves into thinking there isn't a problem.
Claud.
Should we be free to buy machines that create environmental problems?. Every vehicle built does this to greater or lesser degree.
Do we pass legislation draconian enough to prevent this?.
Tough call. I don't know the right answer.
We can deride tree huggers. Until "we take all the trees, put 'em in a tree museum,
Then charge the people a dollar an a half just to see 'em"
We can deride the global warming deniers. Until the worlds economies collapse as industry grinds to a halt.
The worst we can do is fool ourselves into thinking there isn't a problem.
Claud.
Last edited:
...or you could just make the switch from diesel to gasoline which, with a conventional three way cat, doesn't emit high levels of NOx.
Is that being a tree hugger? Does that automatically quality you as a snowflake? (a stupid insult if ever there was one!)
You get some seriously weird & extreme people on this site. It makes me fear for the future of the entire human race.
Is that being a tree hugger? Does that automatically quality you as a snowflake? (a stupid insult if ever there was one!)
You get some seriously weird & extreme people on this site. It makes me fear for the future of the entire human race.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: czbrian
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Ahhh yes, the solution is electric busses, which will be charged from power generated by coal. This should be interesting to watch unfold.
Only about 37% coal according to 2017 data ive seen. Renewables are at 33% in germany, nuclear 12%, and the rest gas or other.
This is for 2016 unfortunately:
However, it does illustrate that coal is the largest single mode of generation in Germany, and as they try and wean themselves off Nuclear, it will be either replaced by more coal, or Natural Gas, both of which are fossil sources.
I find it somewhat amusing that "Biomass" (we are burning wood and brush) gets lumped in as "renewable", as it is still a carbon source.
Based on that graph, 60.1% of Germany's annual output is generated via sources that emit, at minimum, Carbon Dioxide.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Ahhh yes, the solution is electric busses, which will be charged from power generated by coal. This should be interesting to watch unfold.
Only about 37% coal according to 2017 data ive seen. Renewables are at 33% in germany, nuclear 12%, and the rest gas or other.
This is for 2016 unfortunately:
However, it does illustrate that coal is the largest single mode of generation in Germany, and as they try and wean themselves off Nuclear, it will be either replaced by more coal, or Natural Gas, both of which are fossil sources.
I find it somewhat amusing that "Biomass" (we are burning wood and brush) gets lumped in as "renewable", as it is still a carbon source.
Based on that graph, 60.1% of Germany's annual output is generated via sources that emit, at minimum, Carbon Dioxide.
We don't have, and have no real plans to create, enough electric generating power to replace more than perhaps 10% of the fossil fuel vehicles on the road today. We would need an order of magnitude more electricity generating power than we have or that we could possibly build even in the next 10 years, if we got a hustle on it. And increasing the generating power by 10x the existing grid is strangely absent from these public grandstands, there is no money being allocated to do it, and it's all just a huge mirage in general.
A lot of this talk is politicians who won't even be breathing by the time these grandiose pronouncements come to fruition, which of course leaves the possibility that none of it will actually happen. But the votes are needed today, not 20 years or even 10 years from now. Guess what happens next?
A lot of this talk is politicians who won't even be breathing by the time these grandiose pronouncements come to fruition, which of course leaves the possibility that none of it will actually happen. But the votes are needed today, not 20 years or even 10 years from now. Guess what happens next?
This has been going on for years, follow the money, once you know who is getting paid and who is paying it you have the real answer.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: Trav
This has been going on for years, follow the money, once you know who is getting paid and who is paying it you have the real answer.
This has been going on for years, follow the money, once you know who is getting paid and who is paying it you have the real answer.
wemay
Site Donor 2023
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
...or you could just make the switch from diesel to gasoline which, with a conventional three way cat, doesn't emit high levels of NOx.
Is that being a tree hugger? Does that automatically quality you as a snowflake? (a stupid insult if ever there was one!)
You get some seriously weird & extreme people on this site. It makes me fear for the future of the entire human race.
+1
A logical, happy medium is rarely the result of environmental discussions... and to be honest, many others on here as well.
...or you could just make the switch from diesel to gasoline which, with a conventional three way cat, doesn't emit high levels of NOx.
Is that being a tree hugger? Does that automatically quality you as a snowflake? (a stupid insult if ever there was one!)
You get some seriously weird & extreme people on this site. It makes me fear for the future of the entire human race.
+1
A logical, happy medium is rarely the result of environmental discussions... and to be honest, many others on here as well.
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