Rethinking gun control/types of purchases

[DoubleWasp]

Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Originally Posted By: Nick1994

The second issue is thinking the government is going to come after us. Really? Who? Congressman and Senators? Yeah, right. I suppose you're saying our military members and police.

Do you think these people, if they were still enlisted, would be walking the streets and trying to kill you? Or take your gun? I'm sorry but that's ridiculous. To think that our military would turn against it's own people and take the people's guns is just silly.

Now if you want to have the excuse for owning weapons to protect yourself from general home intruders that's fine. That's why I have firearms myself. But to think our military would kill us? No.

In the 1700's and before, the world wasn't civilized. People were practically animals. If you were mad at someone, you could kill them and not really face consequences. We aren't Neanderthals anymore.


Respectfully, you are quite naive. Yes it seems far fetched that our own govt would become tyrannical. Did you know that the US gov rounded up Japanese Americans, in America, and put them in camps during WW2? Any escapees were shot on sight. That's tyranny. And it happened in America, to American citizens.

Blacks were terrorized from 1600's to the 1940's, often with approval or assistance of govt authorities. Entire black towns (hundreds of people) were shot to death and the entire town burned to the ground. With the sheriff's approval. That's tyranny. And it happened in America, to American citizens.

Imagine you had a time machine, and went back to Germany in 1935. You found a Jewish club. You were asked to speak to them about how wonderful the future is. You grew a somber look on your face, and said "I'm sorry to tell you this. Hitler conquers vast swaths of Europe. Along the way, his SS police imprison, enslave, and kill 6 million Jews. They are killed in showers with pestacide, and then the bodies are burned in huge ovens." They literally would have laughed you out of the room. You would be called an insane mad man for your crazy talk. They would not believe you!!


What does the time machine/Jewish story have to do with America? The jews had no idea they were in serious jeopardy, until it was too late. They gradually, over time, lost freedoms. One could compare these naive Jews to naive Americans in 2018 America. Unaware of the dangers. Unaware that allowing their freedoms be taken from them, a small bit at a time, allows tyranny to one day rear it's head. Unchecked.

Why do you feel that tyranny can never infect America? It infects large swaths of the world TODAY. How civilized is the world TODAY. Not very.


Haven't read the whole thread yet, but this is definitely going to be one of the best posts.

There is a reason why the Jews have the saying, "Never again." They know it can happen again.

 

[DoubleWasp]

Originally Posted By: Nick1994
Originally Posted By: Ihatetochangeoil
Originally Posted By: Nick1994
A lot of people don't want to even try to do anything with gun laws. Whether it's restricting the amount of ammo a gun can hold, bump stocks, different background checks, etc. they want absolutely nothing to be done.

Then they say arm the teachers. I've been a student for the last 19 years of my life, have had over 100 teachers. Only two of them (former Marines) would I even somewhat trust with a gun. I'd be terrified if some whackjob teacher was carrying a gun on their hip in class. Teachers lose their tempers (as humans sometimes do) and they'd probably shoot the kids, or the gun would get wrestled away by someone.

Then they say put armed security guards and metal detectors in schools. While I think this is a somewhat decent idea, the new budget cuts $9 billion from the Education budget. There's 140,000 schools in the U.S., if a guard makes $40k a year, that's $5.6 billion a year, not including metal detectors. Schools can't even afford paper and pens.

Instead of everyone putting their fingers in their ears and not willing to listen, be open minded and see if we can alter our laws reasonably. Not too long ago we had segregated schools and black people couldn't vote. We changed our laws as modern times change.

Just my 2 cents

Great! You're obviously a student? Young, impressionable open minded? Alter our laws reasonably? Don't you really mean amend the Constitution; like we did to allow blacks to vote? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

Please disagree with me on this if you can present a historically reasonable argument: Ever heard of the midnight ride of Paul Revere? What did he do? Alerted the peasants, farmers, countrymen, patriots, neighbors, minutemen, whatever you wish to call them..."The British are coming, the British are coming..." Historically speaking, who were the British?

Now, at the time this took place, (April, 1775), the Declaration of Independence had not even been drafted, much less written or signed. American Colonists (terminology of the day) were (taxpaying) British citizens. And what was the end result of Paul Revere's ride?

Paul Revere's ride alerted his countrymen who were armed in such a way as to be able to repel a (foreign or domestic) invading army. The countrymen had firepower equivalent to or greater than the British regular army. This was MOST CERTAINLY not lost in the meaning or intent of the second amendment.

Do you think that the founding fathers had forgotten about all this when the second amendment was drafted? I've heard liberals say that single shot muskets were what the founding fathers envisioned when they drafted the second amendment...that's exactly right; that's exactly what the British regulars had, complete with bayonets. Today, nothing has changed except technology.

Fast forward to 2018. I should not only be able to own an AR 15 (which I do) and 100 round drum magazines (which I do); but I should be able to purchase fully automatic weapons up to and including 50 caliber (and above). If I have money, I should be able to purchase armor piercing ammo, bulletproof vests, rocket propelled grenades, Apache attack helicopters, M1A1 tanks, etc. Any law that prevents this is unconstitutional; including the 1939 Automatic weapons act which severely restricts automatic weapons. I fear the government that fears my guns. Every tyrannical dictator in the 20th century started by disarmament of the people. Have you learned nothing?

I am 60 years old; and I do NOT want to die from shooting back at police, military or any government agent...but I promise you I WILL die a free man. There may be between 100 to 200 million like minded Patriots of all ages. If you wish to repeal the second amendment, how will you enforce that? Isn't disarmament what the British attempted?

YOU represent the next generation. I will probably die before you are married and have kids. I wish to instill in your generation that guns represent freedom. If you vote away the second amendment or restrict it to being useless, you may realize before you die that you gave away your own freedom. My two cents.

There's a couple problems.

One, I'm not sure where you saw in my post that I want the 2nd amendment taken away? I'm a gun owner myself, and respect the 2nd amendment. What I do stand for is tougher background checks, age 21 to own a firearm as a civilian, and no bump stocks. Our system needs to be fixed as well. Nikolas Cruz had the police called on him 39 times before this incident. In my opinion, there should be barriers in place to make him labeled as someone who shouldn't have a gun. The FBI was tipped off about a school shooting but didn't follow through. Websites like backpage and armslist should be abolished and guns should be sold with background checks through reputable dealers. Will this stop all sales? Of course not. Will it stop most private sales? Probably not. But at least we can say we tried. And maybe it'll prevent something from happening.

The second issue is thinking the government is going to come after us. Really? Who? Congressman and Senators? Yeah, right. I suppose you're saying our military members and police. We have members here on BITOG such as Astro14, Merkava_4, Smoky14, LS1Mike, bigj_16, Mr Nice, 69GTX, sasilverbullet, car51, SubyRubyRoo, and many others.

Do you think these people, if they were still enlisted, would be walking the streets and trying to kill you? Or take your gun? I'm sorry but that's ridiculous. To think that our military would turn against it's own people and take the people's guns is just silly.

Now if you want to have the excuse for owning weapons to protect yourself from general home intruders that's fine. That's why I have firearms myself. But to think our military would kill us? No.

In the 1700's and before, the world wasn't civilized. People were practically animals. If you were mad at someone, you could kill them and not really face consequences. We aren't Neanderthals anymore.


Given that our military has actually been responsible for executing a school shooting, I wouldn't give them the full confidence you seem to give them:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

Hypocrisy also noted. You claim that the world is not civilized enough to be responsible with certain firearms, but should give them up because the world is so civilized? Hrm......

 

[4WD]

Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Originally Posted By: Nick1994

The second issue is thinking the government is going to come after us. Really? Who? Congressman and Senators? Yeah, right. I suppose you're saying our military members and police.

Do you think these people, if they were still enlisted, would be walking the streets and trying to kill you? Or take your gun? I'm sorry but that's ridiculous. To think that our military would turn against it's own people and take the people's guns is just silly.

Now if you want to have the excuse for owning weapons to protect yourself from general home intruders that's fine. That's why I have firearms myself. But to think our military would kill us? No.

In the 1700's and before, the world wasn't civilized. People were practically animals. If you were mad at someone, you could kill them and not really face consequences. We aren't Neanderthals anymore.


Respectfully, you are quite naive. Yes it seems far fetched that our own govt would become tyrannical. Did you know that the US gov rounded up Japanese Americans, in America, and put them in camps during WW2? Any escapees were shot on sight. That's tyranny. And it happened in America, to American citizens.

Blacks were terrorized from 1600's to the 1940's, often with approval or assistance of govt authorities. Entire black towns (hundreds of people) were shot to death and the entire town burned to the ground. With the sheriff's approval. That's tyranny. And it happened in America, to American citizens.

Imagine you had a time machine, and went back to Germany in 1935. You found a Jewish club. You were asked to speak to them about how wonderful the future is. You grew a somber look on your face, and said "I'm sorry to tell you this. Hitler conquers vast swaths of Europe. Along the way, his SS police imprison, enslave, and kill 6 million Jews. They are killed in showers with pestacide, and then the bodies are burned in huge ovens." They literally would have laughed you out of the room. You would be called an insane mad man for your crazy talk. They would not believe you!!


What does the time machine/Jewish story have to do with America? The jews had no idea they were in serious jeopardy, until it was too late. They gradually, over time, lost freedoms. One could compare these naive Jews to naive Americans in 2018 America. Unaware of the dangers. Unaware that allowing their freedoms be taken from them, a small bit at a time, allows tyranny to one day rear it's head. Unchecked.

Why do you feel that tyranny can never infect America? It infects large swaths of the world TODAY. How civilized is the world TODAY. Not very.


Haven't read the whole thread yet, but this is definitely going to be one of the best posts.

There is a reason why the Jews have the saying, "Never again." They know it can happen again.


And the military has to keep the peace when it’s citizen vs citizens = who are the bad guys. We have very widespread behavior problems in America fueled by so called leaders that fan the flames of animosity.
Picture Baltimore and some of these cities gone wild over perceived problems … then think about very real problems like when the 20 Trillion cash call comes in and there is no money. I’d want some basic protection for my family against citizens more so than the military … I don’t own or need any of the more controversial weapons … but don’t support what Australia did
(Nor does a friend from Oz who has had his home searched).
Our office has better security than that school did. Our schools have far better security than they did. Start there while the gun bills get sorted … but don’t expect too much because “too much” is the fear on both sides of the debate.

One interesting debate is “background checks” = been hearing that one for 20 years. Heard them all say good stuff.
Who is waiting on who for what?

 

[CourierDriver]

Remember guys,,keep it civil..............good post here........

 

[alarmguy]

Why do guns need to be controlled?
Existing laws are not enforced, why more laws?

Owning a gun is a right.
Media coverage of sick people, with sick minds, allows these sick people to become world famous in minutes. They go from nobody to everyone in the world knows who they are.

As Americans we patronize these news outlets, media, ect. with all the gore and details, 24 hours a day. Its an endless soap opera, 24 hours a day the media has something for you to watch, real news turned into perverted TV shows about peoples misfortunes.
We suck it up and let these companies laugh all the way to the bank with massive advertising revenues.

Its laughable and quite sad, the young snowflakes, uneducated voters think the world is coming to an end, like a bunch of cattle scared from a gunshot.

When all the time ... GUN VIOLENCE IN THE USA IS DOWN 50% IN THE LAST 15 YEARS. Gun ownership is at an all time high.
Media coverage of these sick people have exploded over the last 15 years, 24 hour news, internet, cable TV, smart phones, and accepted these News Program soap operas as the norm, some people think news people actually are intelligent, yet they are just dumb actors swindling you out of your time.
Think about it.


Evil is and always will be everywhere in this world, you cant let the media allow to push an agenda. Sadly the price if FREEDOM is never free but a far less of a price to pay then a dictatorship.

By far, governments are the biggest killers of all time and have killed more citizens by the tens of millions over time because they didnt have their freedoms protected by a Constitution.

Dont misunderstand my post, these mass shootings are horrible events but you can not let events take away peoples freedoms or in time, your children and grandchildren will lose even more freedoms over excuses from politicians.

You commit a crime, you go to jail, there will sadly, always be victims no matter what. We are a country of over 300 million people.
Everyday 85 people die in the USA because of car accidents, 280 people a day die because of a mistake in a hospital and so on.

If we want to stop mass shootings, stop turning the sick killers into world famous people 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

 

[Andrew1972]

Not one single solution or idea will solve the problem. I belive that all ideas should be valued and collected including taking away guns to the opposite of arming folks more. Every idea is viable and a combination of gun control or lack of coupled to change in correlated mental health wellness, awareness, helping others, society stigma all come into play. Also rethinking public and private (insurance) requirements which don’t cover that off well.

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: ZZman
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix


My point went over your head. Letting you own firearms to protect yourself and not bazookas, hand grenades and tanks isn't taking away your 2nd ammendment rights.


I would agree with this thought process. Shotguns and hunting rifles with limited magazine capacity would fulfill the 2nd Amendment. Handguns and assault style weapons are not required to do so and not allowing them would not infringe on someone's right to own a firearm as the two listed above would fulfill the requirement.


Shotguns and hunting rifles are pretty tough to conceal carry...

 

[dnewton3]

Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Gun control is completely worthless.

I'm from NYC, where we had the most strict gun control, and it's only gotten worse.

I'd bet you anything that I could pick up a gun in NYC in less than 3 hours.

Booze under ban: Everywhere, accessible by everyone
Drugs under ban: Everywhere, accessible by everyone

What could we expect of guns?



I'll throw my .02c here ... FACTS and not bias.

- Booze was banned by the 18th Amendment; got reversed by the 21st Amendment. As pointed out above, the ban didn't deter many from consumption; only made criminals out of "normal" folks.
- Illicit drugs (lets just talk marijuana) are under heavy pressure to be legalized, and is being done as such in many states, with more likely to follow. Again - bans makes criminals out of "normal" folks.
- Guns? Restrictive controls have had a hap-hazard application of "freedom" from state to state; no evidence whatsoever that bans work. And when we did (past tense) have a federal ban for ten years, it was not renewed. Most notably, violent crime went down during that 10 year period; true. However (big picture here) that same measure of crime was in a downward trend BEFORE the ban, and continued in a downward trend AFTER the ban expired, proving only CORRELATION and NOT CAUSATION. The ban didn't work; it just coexisted during a long-term trend. States with high gun-control efforts have no more success thwarting violent crime than do states with low gun-control efforts. Hence, gun control laws do not have any major impact on gun crime.


I will now induce irony into such topics ...
Alcohol: despite being an "adult" at 18, you cannot legally get alcohol until you're 21.
Guns: there is now a topic floating at the highest levels of banning young adults from buying certain "rifles" until 21 years old.
Drugs: you can buy marijuana as a "adult" in some states now, at 18.
Tobacco: some states now have, and many others are considering, a minimum smoking age of 21.
Nudity: you can perform at an establishment as an "artist" at 18 years old by dancing around a pole on stage, because you have "free speech" and "liberty", but cannot walk into the patron area where they serve alcohol, because you're not 21 ....
Contracts and credit: at 18, you can legally be bound by any contract you willingly sign, but you're old enough to rent a car until you're 25; even though a credit card company will issue you a card at 18, the car rental company will not sell you their service of the vehicle use based upon a perceived lack of trustworthiness ....


We don't teach maturity in our society and base decisions on facts.
We teach hypocrisy and making sudden choices based on hysteria.

 

[stockrex]

School shootings
Church shootings
Movie Theater shootings,
this is just sickening.

As someone who conceal carry a gun, I look back to Luby's Diner Massacre.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luby%27s_shooting

Remember Suzanna Hupp, think how the outcome that day could have been different, how many lives could have saved only if she had her gun on herself.

The terrorist in this incident did not use an assault rifle but hand guns.

Common sense has to prevail for solutions, ask yourself why these domestic terrorists are targeting these facilities, simple, these are gun free zones.

I am parent who has school age children, I want a solution and keep my kids safe. I don't want feel good laws.

We have become a nation of feel good laws and unable to talk about root causes and solutions.

In MI the lawmakers proposed making it legal for CPS holders to carry their guns in the school, you should have seen the opposition to it.

What ironic is the oppositions sole focus on guns and not the other causes (alcohol, drugs) which are killing are citizens by 1000s

 

[4WD]

Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: supton
I don't think I've heard of the min age (of 21) being mentioned as a possibility in years past. That might have some premise, seeing how alcohol is treated that way. Wouldn't have deterred Sandy Hook nor Vegas though.


We can send 18 and 19 years old soldiers off to war equipped with some of the best fighting arms in the world, but when he comes home he wouldn't be able to rabbit hunt. How are you going to square that?


Good point … but that can be a perk for signing up. Otherwise I’m for gun purchase, alcohol, smoking etc all 21.
In fact you want to save some teens. Move driving from 16 to 18.

 

[javacontour]

I haven't read the whole thread, yet am confident that it's little different, other than perhaps being a bit less vulgar than most on-line debates of this topic.

When you look at what was done for airline security after 9/11, it wasn't just banning items, it was a multifaceted approach to security.

1. Banning certain items in the cabin.
2. More cockpit security.
3. More screening of passengers.
4. Random Air Marshall presence on flights.

and perhaps more measures that are not publicly discussed.

There are folks who should not own firearms, no question. The sticky question is how do you manage that in light of there being a Constitutional right to bear arms. Even the recent DC vs Heller decision indicates that while the DC handgun ban was unconstitutional, that doesn't mean government is prohibited from the regulation of firearms.

Originally Posted By: madRiver
Not one single solution or idea will solve the problem. I belive that all ideas should be valued and collected including taking away guns to the opposite of arming folks more. Every idea is viable and a combination of gun control or lack of coupled to change in correlated mental health wellness, awareness, helping others, society stigma all come into play. Also rethinking public and private (insurance) requirements which don’t cover that off well.

 

[4WD]

Originally Posted By: stockrex
School shootings
Church shootings
Movie Theater shootings,
this is just sickening.

As someone who conceal carry a gun, I look back to Luby's Diner Massacre.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luby%27s_shooting

Remember Suzanna Hupp, think how the outcome that day could have been different, how many lives could have saved only if she had her gun on herself.

The terrorist in this incident did not use an assault rifle but hand guns.

Common sense has to prevail for solutions, ask yourself why these domestic terrorists are targeting these facilities, simple, these are gun free zones.

I am parent who has school age children, I want a solution and keep my kids safe. I don't want feel good laws.

We have become a nation of feel good laws and unable to talk about root causes and solutions.

In MI the lawmakers proposed making it legal for CPS holders to carry their guns in the school, you should have seen the opposition to it.

What ironic is the oppositions sole focus on guns and not the other causes (alcohol, drugs) which are killing are citizens by 1000s

Strange thought walking in Academy yesterday … they had a bunch of old baseball bats that had been traded in for a discount on a new bat. I wondered where all these “weapons” will go now …
Recycling the aluminum?

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Gun control is completely worthless.

I'm from NYC, where we had the most strict gun control, and it's only gotten worse.

I'd bet you anything that I could pick up a gun in NYC in less than 3 hours.

Booze under ban: Everywhere, accessible by everyone
Drugs under ban: Everywhere, accessible by everyone

What could we expect of guns?




I'll throw my .02c here ... FACTS and not bias.

- Booze was banned by the 18th Amendment; got reversed by the 21st Amendment. As pointed out above, the ban didn't deter many from consumption; only made criminals out of "normal" folks.
- Illicit drugs (lets just talk marijuana) are under heavy pressure to be legalized, and is being done as such in many states, with more likely to follow. Again - bans makes criminals out of "normal" folks.
- Guns? Restrictive controls have had a hap-hazard application of "freedom" from state to state; no evidence whatsoever that bans work. And when we did (past tense) have a federal ban for ten years, it was not renewed. Most notably, violent crime went down during that 10 year period; true. However (big picture here) that same measure of crime was in a downward trend BEFORE the ban, and continued in a downward trend AFTER the ban expired, proving only CORRELATION and NOT CAUSATION. The ban didn't work; it just coexisted during a long-term trend. States with high gun-control efforts have no more success thwarting violent crime than do states with low gun-control efforts. Hence, gun control laws do not have any major impact on gun crime.


I will now induce irony into such topics ...
Alcohol: despite being an "adult" at 18, you cannot legally get alcohol until you're 21.
Guns: there is now a topic floating at the highest levels of banning young adults from buying certain "rifles" until 21 years old.
Drugs: you can buy marijuana as a "adult" in some states now, at 18.
Tobacco: some states now have, and many others are considering, a minimum smoking age of 21.
Nudity: you can perform at an establishment as an "artist" at 18 years old by dancing around a pole on stage, because you have "free speech" and "liberty", but cannot walk into the patron area where they serve alcohol, because you're not 21 ....
Contracts and credit: at 18, you can legally be bound by any contract you willingly sign, but you're old enough to rent a car until you're 25; even though a credit card company will issue you a card at 18, the car rental company will not sell you their service of the vehicle use based upon a perceived lack of trustworthiness ....


We don't teach maturity in our society and base decisions on facts.
We teach hypocrisy and making sudden choices based on hysteria.


Bingo. We should establish one age for all of the above and stick to it. Some people might not like it, that's life you can't please everyone, but we have to start somewhere.

With regard to the school situation we can start by making them more secure. There were many good suggestions here. Will a school every be 100% safe? No. Will driving, walking, riding a bike, or anything else for that matter ever be 100% safe? No. But things can always be improved upon. The fact that these school shootings are becoming more frequent tells me we need to change something in the school system.

 

[mbacfp]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint

Gun control is completely worthless.

I'm from NYC, where we had the most strict gun control, and it's only gotten worse.

I'd bet you anything that I could pick up a gun in NYC in less than 3 hours.

Booze under ban: Everywhere, accessible by everyone
Drugs under ban: Everywhere, accessible by everyone

What could we expect of guns?



That is the problem with the National debate on this issue. Nothing else is being proposed with Gun Control measures. Even if you are anti-gun, there is nothing else that needs to be looked at? It comes off very disingenuous...like exploiting this tragedy to push one and only agenda. Great thread and I'm glad it is still here. I appreciate all who have contributed.

 

[4WD]

Originally Posted By: mbacfp
Originally Posted By: demarpaint

Gun control is completely worthless.

I'm from NYC, where we had the most strict gun control, and it's only gotten worse.

I'd bet you anything that I could pick up a gun in NYC in less than 3 hours.

Booze under ban: Everywhere, accessible by everyone
Drugs under ban: Everywhere, accessible by everyone

What could we expect of guns?



That is the problem with the National debate on this issue. Nothing else is being proposed with Gun Control measures. Even if you are anti-gun, there is nothing else that needs to be looked at? It comes off very disingenuous...like exploiting this tragedy to push one and only agenda. Great thread and I'm glad it is still here. I appreciate all who have contributed.



The grandstanding needs to stop ~ especially from hypocritical leaders who did nothing all the time they had the chance. For us to protect our children we need folks on the Hill to stop carrying on like children …