Recent Topics
suprise
by ernied. 12/14/18 07:33 PM
2016 Traverse 6350mi Schaeffers 9000 5W30
by chevman4life. 12/14/18 07:21 PM
Oil filter for Canadian winter
by Popsy. 12/14/18 06:11 PM
12-14-18 only! Irwin vise @ Menards. $99.99
by Kruse. 12/14/18 06:01 PM
10" Subwoofer - $6.52 Each
by Greg L. 12/14/18 05:31 PM
Finding 507.00 spec oil
by sloinker. 12/14/18 05:31 PM
New Tires for the Old Chevy!
by dogememe. 12/14/18 05:09 PM
Back to Basics II
by MolaKule. 12/14/18 04:31 PM
"SG(+)" 15w40 or better oil 1987 BBC 454
by F239141. 12/14/18 03:52 PM
All Mazda 3’s have bad OCV’s?
by buster. 12/14/18 03:44 PM
Bad cylinder 3 misfire.
by Hemispheres. 12/14/18 02:49 PM
Small leak at toilet base - bad wax ring?
by Oro_O. 12/14/18 02:38 PM
Ok I take it back about Keurig
by StevieC. 12/14/18 02:29 PM
Edge 5W-30 7.9k miles '13 F150 5.0
by dustyroads. 12/14/18 02:11 PM
Stick with WSS-M2C946-A?
by BlueFog. 12/14/18 01:42 PM
How engine capacity affects fuel consumption?
by NICAT. 12/14/18 01:12 PM
Pep Boys
by Zee09. 12/14/18 12:41 PM
Newest Members
wsalopek, jcr1293, maxwellk, BlueFog, Frank_G35
66682 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
76 registered members (atikovi, 10ecfarmer, 2strokeNorthstar, AZjeff, 86lxjunker, Ag76, 10 invisible), 1,620 guests, and 38 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics295,081
Posts4,927,415
Members66,682
Most Online2,553
Oct 27th, 2018
Donate to BITOG
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Monitoring engine health with OBD datalogging #4673131
02/21/18 11:41 AM
02/21/18 11:41 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 11,424
PA
d00df00d Offline OP
d00df00d  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 11,424
PA
I want to try to use OBD datalogging to catch problems with aging injectors/sensors/etc. as they develop, before they're bad enough to trigger a CEL. The idea is to randomly datalog my drives to build up a history, and then watch for deviations from the baseline.

Anyone have feedback on good parameters to measure? Ill be using Torque Pro with a generic OBD Bluetooth dongle.

Fuel trims and cat temp are two fairly obvious examples. Another might be ignition timing. I'd imagine any of those would have to be compared against IATs, throttle, measured load, etc. But that bridge can be crossed later.

I cant be the first to think of this. Anyone heard of others doing it? What do tuners monitor when they do remote tunes?

Any thoughts welcome.


2008 BMW M3
Re: Monitoring engine health with OBD datalogging [Re: d00df00d] #4673157
02/21/18 11:58 AM
02/21/18 11:58 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 12,761
NH
supton Offline
supton  Offline
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 12,761
NH
My question would be, what are you going to do with all that data? I mean, sample engine temp at once/second, and that's sixty floats per minute, times however long you drive. Times however many trips over time. Then you need some sort of record of what type of driving. Track day or errand running.

Need some sort of tool to open the datalogs and mine out the data, one which can open multiple datalogs at once, plotting trends from different runs. You could copy&paste into Excel, I suppose.


2011 Toyota Camry, base, 2.5L/6MT, 170k, hers
2010 Toyota Tundra DC, 4.6L/6AT, 144k, ours
1999 Toyota Camry LE, 2.2L/4AT, 195k, his
Re: Monitoring engine health with OBD datalogging [Re: supton] #4673209
02/21/18 12:40 PM
02/21/18 12:40 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 11,424
PA
d00df00d Offline OP
d00df00d  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 11,424
PA
Originally Posted By: supton
My question would be, what are you going to do with all that data? I mean, sample engine temp at once/second, and that's sixty floats per minute, times however long you drive. Times however many trips over time. Then you need some sort of record of what type of driving. Track day or errand running.

Need some sort of tool to open the datalogs and mine out the data, one which can open multiple datalogs at once, plotting trends from different runs. You could copy&paste into Excel, I suppose.

Good call. Have a few thoughts on that; may address it later. For now, I'm mainly trying to figure out how feasible it'd be in theory.


2008 BMW M3
Re: Monitoring engine health with OBD datalogging [Re: d00df00d] #4673224
02/21/18 12:53 PM
02/21/18 12:53 PM
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 402
Minnesota
2010Civic Offline
2010Civic  Offline
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 402
Minnesota
You must have a lot of extra time on your hands.


2010 Honda Civic LX
Valvoline SynPower 5w-20 - Napa Gold oil filter
59,992 miles
Re: Monitoring engine health with OBD datalogging [Re: d00df00d] #4673290
02/21/18 01:40 PM
02/21/18 01:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 6,521
New England
gathermewool Offline
gathermewool  Offline
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 6,521
New England
What's with the comments about having too much time on your hands? Data logging is done in the background and the data is easy to digest, so long as it can be copied to an excel file.

I have no experience with BT dongles and phone logging, but I used to datalog frequently using Cobb's AccessTunerRace software and a cheap netbook, which I hear is no longer being offered to AccessPort owners.

I don't have any logs in front of me, so, from memory, I believe I logged the following (either all at once or several at a time, depending on my objective):

Requested torque
Coolant temp
Intake air temp
Boost
Boost error
Feedback knock correction
Fine learning knock correction
Dynamic (Ignition) advance multiplier
Long-term fuel trim
Short-term fuel trim
Injector duty cycle
Engine load
EGT
AFR 1 (upstream)


Ignition timing will have too many variables and it will be tough to find a pattern there. Requested torque, AFR, knock and fuel trims (and boost, in my case) were logged all the time. IDC to see if I was going above 100%. Others, as desired.

I believe sample rates were 1/s but it might have been 10/s - can't recall the resolution.

Use conditional formatting in excel to quickly highlight any anamolous or desired data. I would highlight low boost in light green, high boost in dark green; knock in red; anamolous fuel trims (I used +\- 4 for fuel trim highlighting), etc.

Last edited by gathermewool; 02/21/18 01:45 PM. Reason: Conditional formatting info

'14 Forester XT FA20DIT (Cobb Stage 1)
Edge 0W-40 + FU filter (64,774 miles)
'15 Legacy FB25 (OEM Stage, uh, neg. 7?)
Edge 0W-20 + FU filter (40,803 miles)
Re: Monitoring engine health with OBD datalogging [Re: d00df00d] #4673355
02/21/18 02:34 PM
02/21/18 02:34 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 12,582
Idaho
CT8 Offline
CT8  Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 12,582
Idaho
It would be more efficient to moniter the MPGS .


2015 Ford F150 2.7
2018 Ford F350 6.2
Re: Monitoring engine health with OBD datalogging [Re: d00df00d] #4673473
02/21/18 03:53 PM
02/21/18 03:53 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 12
PA USA
ae7456t Offline
ae7456t  Offline
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 12
PA USA
I found the data that is usually captured in the $06 section of OBDII analysis to be very helpful, especially the misfire information.

What I found was that I had a small number of misfires across cylinders 1, 3, 5 (Bank 1)...It was small enough so as not to trigger a CEL (less than 10 per cylinder), but greater than zero, which is what was shown for cylinders 2, 4, 6 (Bank 2).

As a result of that data, I changed the pre-cat O2 sensor on that side, and ran valve cleaner through the air intake to see if that would help...Too soon to tell, but the number it shows for the last 10 cycles keeps coming down, so I am cautiously optimistic it helped.

Long story, short...It helped me identify and address an issue, before it became a bigger problem, so I would recommend it to others.


2006 Infiniti M35X at 16X,XXX miles
Castrol High Mileage 10W-40
Fram Filter

2011 Buick Enclave with 10X,XXX miles
AC Delco Synthetic 5W-30
AC Delco Filter
Re: Monitoring engine health with OBD datalogging [Re: d00df00d] #4673588
02/21/18 05:31 PM
02/21/18 05:31 PM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,477
NJ
Leo99 Offline
Leo99  Offline
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,477
NJ
I'm a data guy and very fluent in Excel. What you are proposing to do is time consuming and difficult unless you understand vehicle data well. I was troubleshooting a CEL and suspected an O2 sensor. Teaching myself how those sensors work took a little time. Then trying to compare my data graphs to known good graphs and bad graphs I found on the internet was not easy. It's like looking at a cardiogram. You need to know what to look for. If it's not bad enough to throw a code, it's going to be subtle. A trained doctor can look at a cardiogram and easily tell normal from abnormal. A trained person can do the same with a cardiogram or vehicle data. You just have to know what to look at.

I suggest you do it. If nothing else, you'll learn a lot about vehicle data and data analysis. And plotting graphs in Excel.


Without data you're just another person with an opinion. W. E. Deming

2003 Corolla 250,000 miles (RIP)
2004 Corolla 125,000 miles
2004 Rav4 370,000 miles
2015 Camry 70,000 miles
Re: Monitoring engine health with OBD datalogging [Re: Leo99] #4673627
02/21/18 06:10 PM
02/21/18 06:10 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,825
Taiwan
Ducked Offline
Ducked  Offline
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,825
Taiwan
Perhaps a job for neural network software?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_Designer (Never used it, just a Googled example)

Re: Monitoring engine health with OBD datalogging [Re: gathermewool] #4673670
02/21/18 06:48 PM
02/21/18 06:48 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 225
Cincinnati, USA
Dave9 Offline
Dave9  Offline
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 225
Cincinnati, USA
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
What's with the comments about having too much time on your hands?


Because it's true. What will the data be useful for? To pay extra for more fancy fluids or parts before they're needed? Seems like a worse outcome. Operational observations and fuel economy changes are much less effort and strike right at the hear of the issue which is whether the vehicle is operating acceptably in its purpose as a vehicle.

Quote:
Data logging is done in the background


I just snapped my fingers and don't have data logging set up and done in the background. Therefore, it takes time.

Quote:
and the data is easy to digest, so long as it can be copied to an excel file.


Takes time, and takes time. And more time.

Quote:
I have no experience with BT dongles and phone logging, but I used to datalog frequently using Cobb's AccessTunerRace software and a cheap netbook, which I hear is no longer being offered to AccessPort owners.


So you're suggesting that you would have to... spend time to do this?

It's one thing to use data to tune a custom engine/exhaust/etc setup for peak performance, to win a race or even out of vanity.

It's another thing and fair use of time if it's considered a curiosity, a hobby, but as far as practical applications go, mostly a waste of time for stock daily drivers.

When something needs done, it will become apparent and then pull the OBDII codes. It would be different if there weren't a computer constantly compensating for several variables.

Re: Monitoring engine health with OBD datalogging [Re: d00df00d] #4673842
02/21/18 08:39 PM
02/21/18 08:39 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 6,521
New England
gathermewool Offline
gathermewool  Offline
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 6,521
New England
My STI engine ran just fine, and my boost numbers are right on with a large turbo inlet tear. I heard a faint squeal (like letting the air out of a balloon) that was barely perceptible at first, but slowly got worse. I knew to actively start looking for an issue when my fuel trims started getting wonky. The tear was post-MAF, pre-turbo, so it was sucking in extra unmetered air.

//

Again, I don't know how easily datalogs can be ported from phone apps, but if it's as easy as copying-and-pasting from a .csv file to .xls and creating some conditional formatting, then Leo99 is way off in his assessment in time spent. Once I got my conditional formatting set, it takes literally single-digit minutes to pour over hours of data!

I don't care about most of the run time that looks great. I care about that time I boosted a little more in 6th than I should and saw some knock as a result or specific trends in fuel trims that could indicate leaks, or a million other things that could indicate anything from sub-par fuel (bad fuel can be indicated in increased knock values, well above ghost knock and normal tip-in throttle response during too-aggressive driving for the gear you're in; all of which is imperceptible audibly) to major issues that should be quickly trouble-shot. Seriously, I would have tanks where I'd see nothing but the occasional ghost -1.4 degrees of feedback knock, but my learned knock would be 0 for the cell and DAM would be 1.0 (max); then, the next time, I'd see -2+ retard at increased load levels.

This isn't rocket surgery, folks. Once you get a system down (which is really fun to figure out and learn about,) you can see things that are out-of-whack very quickly. This isn't like staring at your coolant temp idiot gage for the first drive to see if you burped the radiator well enough or checking your O2 sensor response by watching the volt-meter cycle up and down (i.e., very little to be gleaned via these methods) - it CAN BE pretty darned informational.

//

I really hope that these apps show enough data, at a high enough resolution (1 to 10 samples per second) or else I've pretty much put my foot in my mouth, since I'd then be comparing apples (Cobb AP and AccessTunerRace software) to some Oranges (some rough Apple app.) hide

//

In the end, and to emphasize an earlier point: this kind of stuff IS INTERESTING AND FUN. This is the kind of thing we're on a freaking automotive forum to discuss, for crying out loud! Data from a logger will be a heckuva lot more valuable than trying to figure out what that 2 ppm Si in your UOA means! gladiator popcorn2

Last edited by gathermewool; 02/21/18 08:52 PM. Reason: Clarification

'14 Forester XT FA20DIT (Cobb Stage 1)
Edge 0W-40 + FU filter (64,774 miles)
'15 Legacy FB25 (OEM Stage, uh, neg. 7?)
Edge 0W-20 + FU filter (40,803 miles)
Re: Monitoring engine health with OBD datalogging [Re: d00df00d] #4678387
02/26/18 05:50 AM
02/26/18 05:50 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 11,424
PA
d00df00d Offline OP
d00df00d  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 11,424
PA
Thanks, guys. cheers

gathermewool and ae7456t, seems like you understand where I'm coming from 100%. What you describe doing with these data is exactly the kind of stuff I was hoping to achieve.

Leo99, point taken about time and expertise needed, and I agree with your last line; even if this fails, I'll have learned something.

CT8, I'd definitely use MPG if my driving didn't vary so widely. However, I am still monitoring it.

I've also had some feedback from other people so hopefully I'll be pulling something together soon.


2008 BMW M3
Re: Monitoring engine health with OBD datalogging [Re: d00df00d] #4678401
02/26/18 06:15 AM
02/26/18 06:15 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 20,579
MA, Mittelfranken.de
Trav Offline
Trav  Offline
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 20,579
MA, Mittelfranken.de
This sort of goes against the electronic monitoring you are interested in but IMO will give better results in getting the job you want done. If you don't already know how to use one for diagnostics read up on it, you will be amazed at the abilities of one of these gauges.
It will indicate when the valves are getting dirty on DI engines for example in an instant with no scan tool interpretation required, everything effects engine vacuum. One of my all time favorite diagnostic tools.

https://www.amazon.com/Auto-Meter-2337-Autogage-Vacuum/dp/B00062YVT8

Edit: I should mention it is also the perfect tool for diagnosing failing cats due to plugging.

Last edited by Trav; 02/26/18 06:19 AM.

ASE L1, Master. Deutsch Meisterbrief.
Re: Monitoring engine health with OBD datalogging [Re: d00df00d] #4678474
02/26/18 08:29 AM
02/26/18 08:29 AM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,387
Chicago,IL,USA
pandus13 Offline
pandus13  Offline
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,387
Chicago,IL,USA
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: supton
My question would be, what are you going to do with all that data? I mean, sample engine temp at once/second, and that's sixty floats per minute, times however long you drive. Times however many trips over time. Then you need some sort of record of what type of driving. Track day or errand running.

Need some sort of tool to open the datalogs and mine out the data, one which can open multiple datalogs at once, plotting trends from different runs. You could copy&paste into Excel, I suppose.

Good call. Have a few thoughts on that; may address it later. For now, I'm mainly trying to figure out how feasible it'd be in theory.


You could keep all logs saving the file with <yearmonthdatehourminutes> name.
Also you could append them into one big worksheet with an additional column for date when file captured.

Like that you can work a bit more on historical data/trends/what's a good average/exceptions......


16 Golf SportWagen
13 Mazda5
08 Yaris
04 Elantra
95 accent
95 mystique
97 concorde

BOB IS THE OIL GUY® Powered by UBB.threads™