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Conventional question #4672807
02/21/18 08:27 AM
02/21/18 08:27 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 12,761
NH
supton Offline OP
supton  Offline OP
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 12,761
NH
I've long thought that synthetic was better than conventional when it comes to high temperature conditions (like in rings). But is that still as true as it was? Can a good conventional be better than a cheap synthetic in regards to handling heat?


2011 Toyota Camry, base, 2.5L/6MT, 170k, hers
2010 Toyota Tundra DC, 4.6L/6AT, 144k, ours
1999 Toyota Camry LE, 2.2L/4AT, 195k, his
Re: Conventional question [Re: supton] #4672831
02/21/18 08:45 AM
02/21/18 08:45 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 10,545
ROCHESTER, NY
Char Baby Offline
Char Baby  Offline
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 10,545
ROCHESTER, NY
Well, maybe!
I mean, it depends on the additive package of both oils. You know e.g., Pennzoil conventional(PYB) vs., oh lets say, some no name synthetic oil from a discount store.

Or, for the same price, I would take e.g., Super Tech(ST) Synthetic(or ProLine/AAP/AZ syn's etc.) vs. PYB conventional. Sometime, PYB is in fact more money than those said syn. But, they're all good!


"Retired"
-----------------------------------

'80 Firebird FORMULA V8/4bbl-purchased "NEW"
'15 Nissan Altima 2.5 SV
'15 Honda Civic LX
Re: Conventional question [Re: supton] #4672850
02/21/18 08:54 AM
02/21/18 08:54 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 12,761
NH
supton Offline OP
supton  Offline OP
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 12,761
NH
I figure, it's splitting hairs, but why not split when there is nothing else better to do?

IIRC my 5S-FE is "known" for running hot in the rings. Hotter than anything today, or just hotter than normal back in its day? Dunno. I've figured cheap synthetic is better than conventional, but while that may have been true at one point, maybe it isn't anymore.

It's a few bucks either way, not breaking my wallet (so I've been using cheap synthetic) but question remains. I figure the engine really isn't up for 10k OCI's, so does it really need synthetic? OTOH it can & does get flogged for highway merging.


2011 Toyota Camry, base, 2.5L/6MT, 170k, hers
2010 Toyota Tundra DC, 4.6L/6AT, 144k, ours
1999 Toyota Camry LE, 2.2L/4AT, 195k, his
Re: Conventional question [Re: supton] #4672872
02/21/18 09:07 AM
02/21/18 09:07 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 2,467
St. Louis
MONKEYMAN Offline
MONKEYMAN  Offline
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 2,467
St. Louis
I have similar concerns. Will use Cheveron Supreme 10w-30 I have in stock this summer but have a concern of ring deposits. I guess after years of having a Saturn I never want coked rings again in any car.


Truth alone triumphs, not untruth.

2017 Elantra SE
Re: Conventional question [Re: supton] #4672880
02/21/18 09:11 AM
02/21/18 09:11 AM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 506
NC
Matagonka Offline
Matagonka  Offline
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 506
NC
Even with conventional, if you're scared of sludge, just use some MMO once in a while.

Re: Conventional question [Re: supton] #4672947
02/21/18 09:52 AM
02/21/18 09:52 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 6,071
Kalifornia Kollective
BrocLuno Offline
BrocLuno  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 6,071
Kalifornia Kollective
Depends on the oil in question. Chevron Supreme is good oil for lots of engines including modified ones that get beat on. Speedol from the dollar store, not so much ...


Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.
Re: Conventional question [Re: BrocLuno] #4672965
02/21/18 10:01 AM
02/21/18 10:01 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 2,467
St. Louis
MONKEYMAN Offline
MONKEYMAN  Offline
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 2,467
St. Louis
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
Depends on the oil in question. Chevron Supreme is good oil for lots of engines including modified ones that get beat on. Speedol from the dollar store, not so much ...


Thanks. I have trust issues regarding oil and am not very technically inclined. Part of me knows it is OK. You confirmed what I know, but still hard to let go of fear/doubt.


Truth alone triumphs, not untruth.

2017 Elantra SE
Re: Conventional question [Re: supton] #4673041
02/21/18 10:40 AM
02/21/18 10:40 AM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,445
Massachusetts
deven Offline
deven  Offline
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,445
Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: supton
I've long thought that synthetic was better than conventional when it comes to high temperature conditions (like in rings). But is that still as true as it was? Can a good conventional be better than a cheap synthetic in regards to handling heat?

In short the answer is no. Synthetic no matter how cheap it is has more uniform or same size molecules and therefore will dissipate heat at a better and faster rate than conventional oil can ever do.


Proud user of ROYAL PURPLE products!

2016 Acura RLX Sports Hybrid(Royal Purple HPS 5w30 + M1-110 oil filter)

KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID. IT'S ONLY OIL
Re: Conventional question [Re: deven] #4673074
02/21/18 11:05 AM
02/21/18 11:05 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,928
Champlain/Hudson Valley
Kira Offline
Kira  Offline
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,928
Champlain/Hudson Valley
My "hang up" over conv. vs synth. (and I love both) is that there CAN'T BE ANY PARAFFIN OR "NON OIL" JUNK IN THE SYNTHETIC OIL.

I'm sure you can burn or coke anything if the temp is high enough. I just guess synthetics give you a better shot at initial cleanliness.

I also guess the mechanics of it is that the oil stays liquid and keeps circulating.

I'd suppose the little oil holes in the piston skirts of those Toyota engines stay clear.

Re: Conventional question [Re: Kira] #4673102
02/21/18 11:22 AM
02/21/18 11:22 AM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,445
Massachusetts
deven Offline
deven  Offline
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,445
Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: Kira
I'm sure you can burn or coke anything if the temp is high enough.

Indeed you can but due to uniform molecules and highly hydrotreated, synthetics just burn much cleaner than conventional oils.


Proud user of ROYAL PURPLE products!

2016 Acura RLX Sports Hybrid(Royal Purple HPS 5w30 + M1-110 oil filter)

KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID. IT'S ONLY OIL
Re: Conventional question [Re: supton] #4673211
02/21/18 12:41 PM
02/21/18 12:41 PM
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 98
Charles City, Iowa
rideahorse Offline
rideahorse  Offline
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 98
Charles City, Iowa
You guys have been drinking the syn coolade too long. I want to know how much actual temp difference there is between the 2. Not just internet dribble. No matter what you use your motor will last longer than the rest of the car.

Re: Conventional question [Re: supton] #4673726
02/21/18 07:21 PM
02/21/18 07:21 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 6,071
Kalifornia Kollective
BrocLuno Offline
BrocLuno  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 6,071
Kalifornia Kollective
Sort of true. The ring pack can get hot, but the adjacent cylinder wall should only be maybe 100*F above the water jacket temp, even under load. So as long as there is coolant in the system, there is a practical limit to the upward temp possible.

High quality dino oils will live at 300*F. It's often the viscosity modifiers that burn off and cause coking. So it comes down to the add pack, not the base oils (in many cases) as to what is causing the coking issues.

"Most" synthetics are premium oils and have premium add paks. "Some" dinos are not. So the disparity between the accepted characteristics of dino vs syn. But there are no real hard fast rules. No one can show me a proffessional paper that proves that XYZ engine would have lived longer on say AmsOil than Chevron Supreme ... Or Mobil1 vs PYB ... There is no proof that synthetics actually lube better than premium dino oils.

It depends on the engine topology and the add pak in question. If you buy a name brand quality oil, it will serve you well. You buy el cheapo garbage, you pay the price. Syn vs Dino makes little difference.


Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.
Re: Conventional question [Re: BrocLuno] #4674004
02/22/18 01:52 AM
02/22/18 01:52 AM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 9,816
Kendall, FL
wemay Offline
wemay  Offline
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 9,816
Kendall, FL
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
Sort of true. The ring pack can get hot, but the adjacent cylinder wall should only be maybe 100*F above the water jacket temp, even under load. So as long as there is coolant in the system, there is a practical limit to the upward temp possible.

High quality dino oils will live at 300*F. It's often the viscosity modifiers that burn off and cause coking. So it comes down to the add pack, not the base oils (in many cases) as to what is causing the coking issues.

"Most" synthetics are premium oils and have premium add paks. "Some" dinos are not. So the disparity between the accepted characteristics of dino vs syn. But there are no real hard fast rules. No one can show me a proffessional paper that proves that XYZ engine would have lived longer on say AmsOil than Chevron Supreme ... Or Mobil1 vs PYB ... There is no proof that synthetics actually lube better than premium dino oils.

It depends on the engine topology and the add pak in question. If you buy a name brand quality oil, it will serve you well. You buy el cheapo garbage, you pay the price. Syn vs Dino makes little difference.


+1


18 Sportage LX: M1AP 5W-20 + M1-104A
13 SFS 2.0T: PP 10W-30 + XG9688
Re: Conventional question [Re: wemay] #4674014
02/22/18 03:18 AM
02/22/18 03:18 AM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 5,393
Virginia
bbhero Offline
bbhero  Offline
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 5,393
Virginia
+2

I agree with Brucluno as well. Very well stated.

I will say though when I can get a group 3 oil made by Warren Distribution for $3.29 a quart.. I will be all right with that as well.


Nissan Altima 3.5 Coupe
Mobil Super 5w30 Wix 57356
"Treat your family like your friends and treat your friends like your family."
Re: Conventional question [Re: BrocLuno] #4674031
02/22/18 04:54 AM
02/22/18 04:54 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,470
Texas & Global
4WD Offline
4WD  Offline
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,470
Texas & Global
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
Sort of true. The ring pack can get hot, but the adjacent cylinder wall should only be maybe 100*F above the water jacket temp, even under load. So as long as there is coolant in the system, there is a practical limit to the upward temp possible.

High quality dino oils will live at 300*F. It's often the viscosity modifiers that burn off and cause coking. So it comes down to the add pack, not the base oils (in many cases) as to what is causing the coking issues.

"Most" synthetics are premium oils and have premium add paks. "Some" dinos are not. So the disparity between the accepted characteristics of dino vs syn. But there are no real hard fast rules. No one can show me a proffessional paper that proves that XYZ engine would have lived longer on say AmsOil than Chevron Supreme ... Or Mobil1 vs PYB ... There is no proof that synthetics actually lube better than premium dino oils.

It depends on the engine topology and the add pak in question. If you buy a name brand quality oil, it will serve you well. You buy el cheapo garbage, you pay the price. Syn vs Dino makes little difference.


And now for the 0w20 discussion


2018 Chevy 1500 Z71 4WD
2017 Chevy Tahoe LT 4WD
2014 Fusion Hybrid Titanium
2013 Cruze LTZ - RS Turbo
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