Will we see -0w oils in the future?

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The problem with your theory is that the "W" rating is divorced from the grade and I attempted to point that out with my 0W-40 example. It is similarly true for 0W-30 and 0W-20, if you had issues in your Dodge then it wasn't because of the cold cranking specification but rather because it was a 20 grade oil. It is odd however that you had problems in cold weather, since any oil is quite thick when cold regardless of the grade. I suppose it depends on your definition of "cold".

You seem to be stuck on the notion that a 0W oil is "thin" which isn't the case. Other than at very low temperatures a 5W oil of a particular grade and brand can be thinner.
 
Originally Posted By: GLG1
First let me say I'm not trying to be confrontational or a jerk, If I did I apologize.

The point I'm trying to convey Is that In the past Oil viscosity's 5w-40, 5w-30, 10w-30, & 10w-40 were adequate down to 30-F 20-30 years ago. 0w-xx oils were primarily created to meet fuel efficiency, tighter EPA emissions standards, Tighter bearing clearances and oil passages, VVT(variable valve timing) LSPI (Low Speed Preignition) and other Issues with DGI (Direct Gas Injection) engines. Thanks to Synthetic Oils older vehicles/engines can crank and run in those extreme sub 0-F temps. on 5w-40, 5w-30, 10w-30 to 10w-40 with no problems.

For poop's and grin's I used leftover 0w-20 oil for a vehicle I sold in my 97' Dodge 5.9 with 130K miles. The engine knocked when cold, the oil pressure light illuminated in the summer when at operating temp. I switched back to synthetic 10w-30 and all of those Issues Disappeared.


Might be worth taking a gander at the second table on this page...
http://www.viscopedia.com/viscosity-tables/substances/sae-viscosity-grades/
 
When mag-lev bearings become commonplace, the only part of a reciprocating engine that will need lube are the reciprocating parts. Provided we still have reciprocating engines. Then they will discover there is a bigger power draw to power mag-lev bearings than the hydraulic resistance of 20W50 pumping through a BBC.
 
GLG1 and kschachn aboth have points IMO. It seems obvious that the W rating system was indeed borne out of a need for easier (or just plain possible) unaided starts in winter. It's obviously a rating system we need to determine the multigrade performance of an oil in the cold, since the KV100 viscosity does not correlate at all.

That said, it's been a while since the standard's introduction and priorities have radically changed. Regulatory bodies have, and still are, driving engineers to desperation to milk every last drop of friction out of the assembly during testing. The resulting low viscosity oils are pushing the SAE J300 to the limits- 15 years ago, we might have thought future grades would have followed 20 with 10, then 5 similar to the W ratings. Nope! They're splitting the remaining "20 points" 3 or 4 times just to keep the rating system relevant. The cold rating is already maxed out @ 0W with no indications of further definition. Pretty safe to say that attempts to achieve the lowest possible warm-up viscosity to reflect on regulatory testing results in oils that just incidentally qualify for the 'bottomless' 0W rating, rather than being specifically formulated to be a winter oil.
 
Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
GLG1 and kschachn aboth have points IMO. It seems obvious that the W rating system was indeed borne out of a need for easier (or just plain possible) unaided starts in winter. It's obviously a rating system we need to determine the multigrade performance of an oil in the cold, since the KV100 viscosity does not correlate at all.

That said, it's been a while since the standard's introduction and priorities have radically changed. Regulatory bodies have, and still are, driving engineers to desperation to milk every last drop of friction out of the assembly during testing. The resulting low viscosity oils are pushing the SAE J300 to the limits- 15 years ago, we might have thought future grades would have followed 20 with 10, then 5 similar to the W ratings. Nope! They're splitting the remaining "20 points" 3 or 4 times just to keep the rating system relevant. The cold rating is already maxed out @ 0W with no indications of further definition. Pretty safe to say that attempts to achieve the lowest possible warm-up viscosity to reflect on regulatory testing results in oils that just incidentally qualify for the 'bottomless' 0W rating, rather than being specifically formulated to be a winter oil.


Have asked the oil formulators on the board whether in their opinion, and I'll use things like M1 "Race" 0W50 "accidentally" meet 0W, or whether 0W is there by intent...the consensus seems to be that the 0W is a target, and met intentionally.

Just for S&G, here's some of the things I've collected over the years...

1923, looking at the SUS, you can see where the "grades" that we know came from...note the 020, and 030 for the cold temperature oils.


1950...things changed, to a proper W rating and an operating rating...based on viscosity at 0F


1967, again different, still 0F


Couple from my paper collection...1984, different W grades based on stable pour point temperatures, and when they were lost, borderline pumping.



Note the changes in metrics, viscosities, and the like that "defime the grades"...they are arbitrary, and reflect the learnings at the time, that 0F viscosity didn't tell you squat about -30, and later, neither did pour point.

A current 0W is clearly a -40C oil, while an 80s oil may or may not have been.

Thus I agree with the formulators that the "0w" is by design rather than accident. In the older versions of J300, they most certainly could have been an accidental byproduct of basestock.

I'll add this one too...this was Selby's proposed

And at some stage when they were fapping around, CAT split ranks with their oils...note that their view of HTHS rises with grade compared to engine oil J300 specs...(the way that it should be....M1 0W50 race oil should NOT be allowed to be called a 50 with an HTHS of 3.8).
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
The real question is, are any of the 0w-XX lubricants available unsuitable for any winter conditions we see?

Well according to Wikipedia the record low temperature for Regina, Saskatchewan is -50C (-58F). Now that's the record of course, things stop happening at record low temperatures no matter where they are. Do you regularly start your vehicles unaided?
 
I've been starting fairly regularly unaided this year at -35 C, after many hours unplugged. However, for most people, myself included, there are measures that can be taken. Few people here are unaware of their block heater, and there are sufficient employers that do allow employees to plug in. On top of that, my garage is heated, so that eliminates much concern.

Note that I've been using a 5w-XX almost exclusively for years in my winter driven vehicles, and it hasn't been a problem. The real limitations I had in the cold were when I had an LPG powered vehicle, which had to be plugged in around -20 C or colder. The oil wasn't the limiting factor at all.

A -50 C day would be pretty terrible, and I'd certainly be taking measures to improve the situation for starting. The car would almost certainly be in the garage, or plugged in as the case may be. My ultimate preference would be to not leave the house on such a day.
 
Saved. Cool stuff Shanns thanks for posting- interesting to see the rhyme and reason behind the grade #'s
Can't even imagine to speculate what kind of oil that Mobil 0w50 is- loaded with VMs? Low HTHS for a 50, seems like gussied up low vis base oil at first glance. Eech. Didn't mean to suggest blenders and formulators leave things to whim, it's just that I'd find it hilarious if the new eco 16 oil project began with the lead chemist asking "Okay team, how can we ensure that this ULV synthetic 16 grade oil with intentionally-reduced warm-up drag meets the 0W spec", but I probably shouldn't think it so far fetched since there is speculation of possible 5W16 blends right?
 
Originally Posted By: Garak

A -50 C day would be pretty terrible,

Couldn't imagine, -44C is as bad as I've seen. This guy's gear oil was solid and stalled his engine
crazy2.gif

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIsG_8TVokw
 
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