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Where are the ANs? #4671138
02/19/18 05:50 PM
02/19/18 05:50 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,351
toronto
PeterPolyol Offline OP
PeterPolyol  Offline OP
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,351
toronto
Not much talk about ANs as there is about POE and PAO, who's blending with the ANs as base oil these days? I'd guess Mobil carried some of it over from their xxxxSyn days, but still not sure if it was used as a significant part of the base blend, an AN surfactant or both? Also from casual reading, I don't really associate ANs with other consumer brands than Mobil, but surely ANs must be widely used across the industry and in the consumer engine oil market, even if just as an additive. Has anyone heard or know of what other products use AN adds and/or base oils? Do ANs even have any disadvantages for engine oils?

Re: Where are the ANs? [Re: PeterPolyol] #4671183
02/19/18 06:34 PM
02/19/18 06:34 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,135
Virginia
Tom NJ Offline
Tom NJ  Offline
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,135
Virginia
ExxonMobil makes them, sells them, and was using them in their Mobil 1 blends. They generally recommend them as a blending stock at low levels (up to 20%), to enhance other base oils such as PAOs and POEs. Back when they introduced them they were quite expensive, around POE levels. Don't know the current status or who else is using them.

I compared them to POEs in high temperature tests some 14 years ago with identical simple additive packages. In a bulk oxidation test at 218C they showed much higher viscosity and TAN increases and sludge formation than equivalent viscosity POEs. In a coking test at 282C they produced more deposits. Mind you these are very high temperatures where I always evaluated POEs, but I believe at more typical oxidation test temperatures they would have performed better than PAOs and Group IIIs, and would do very well in motor oils. Also the Noack volatilities were much higher than POEs.

The principal disadvantage is low VIs, and the pour points aren't so great.

Re: Where are the ANs? [Re: PeterPolyol] #4671307
02/19/18 08:24 PM
02/19/18 08:24 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,235
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline
MolaKule  Offline
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,235
Iowegia - USA


Reading is fundamental; understanding is not a given ability.
Re: Where are the ANs? [Re: PeterPolyol] #4671309
02/19/18 08:27 PM
02/19/18 08:27 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,235
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline
MolaKule  Offline
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,235
Iowegia - USA
Quote:
I don't really associate ANs with other consumer brands than Mobil, but surely ANs must be widely used across the industry and in the consumer engine oil market, even if just as an additive.


I can't speak for others but I abandoned AN's years ago for various reasons.


Reading is fundamental; understanding is not a given ability.
Re: Where are the ANs? [Re: PeterPolyol] #4671459
02/20/18 12:14 AM
02/20/18 12:14 AM
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,624
Down Under
SR5 Offline
SR5  Offline
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,624
Down Under
Nulon full synthetic Race Oils in Australia
Quote:
Designed to protect at extreme temperatures and sustained high RPM, Nulon Racing Oils were developed from high quality Group IV Poly Alpha Olefin (PAO) and Group V Alkylated Naphthalene (AN) base oil stocks. The PAO and AN formulation offers a range of advantages over Ester based oils in high performance engines.


https://www.nulon.com.au/products/race-oils



Quote:
5W-30 Racing Oil
High anti-wear protection package (Zinc + Moly DTc = 2300PPM)
Suitable for race and highly modified street engines
Durable shear stable formula
High temperature protection
Advanced Group IV Poly Alpha Olefin (PAO)
Advanced Group V Alkylated Naphthalene (AN)


They make 0W20, 5W30, 5W40, 5W50 and 10w60


Penrite Vantage 10W40 SN & A3/B4 + Wesfil-Cooper Z154
Re: Where are the ANs? [Re: PeterPolyol] #4671467
02/20/18 12:44 AM
02/20/18 12:44 AM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,226
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,226
Waco, TX
Racing oil is good for the duration of a race......... but will it last 5,000 miles in varied driving conditions without going sour?


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: Where are the ANs? [Re: Linctex] #4671557
02/20/18 06:37 AM
02/20/18 06:37 AM
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,624
Down Under
SR5 Offline
SR5  Offline
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,624
Down Under
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Racing oil is good for the duration of a race......... but will it last 5,000 miles in varied driving conditions without going sour?


Not too sure about the Nulon as it's new to the market, but the Penrite 10-Tenths racing oil (100% PAO & Ester) is also made to be used in highly modified street cars as well as race engines, so it carries real specs (e.g. 10W40 racing is still API SN & ACEA A3/B3 with a TBN of 9.8) I've used this oil before in my motorcycles that I take to 6k miles OCI.

The same oil was used in the V8 race car that won the most recent Bathurst endurance race, that's the big one in Australia.

Aussie performance heads, want race oils that they can run in their street cars. So that is what Penrite, and now Nulon I assume, make for them. They are very good sellers.



Last edited by SR5; 02/20/18 06:42 AM. Reason: Image shows SN and A3/B3

Penrite Vantage 10W40 SN & A3/B4 + Wesfil-Cooper Z154
Re: Where are the ANs? [Re: PeterPolyol] #4671559
02/20/18 06:40 AM
02/20/18 06:40 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,876
'Stralia
Shannow Online content
Shannow  Online Content
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,876
'Stralia
Agree...Penrite have everything needed to get the manufacturer's OCI with the addition of the elevated additives.

I haven't researched the Nulon products enough to say yay/nay.

Re: Where are the ANs? [Re: SR5] #4671561
02/20/18 06:44 AM
02/20/18 06:44 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,993
Texas
4WD Online confused
4WD  Online Confused
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,993
Texas
That Nulon looks like a cat killer
Im surprised there have not been more environmental folks in the middle of this
Maybe they are fully focused on causing black outs wink

Re: Where are the ANs? [Re: 4WD] #4671562
02/20/18 06:47 AM
02/20/18 06:47 AM
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,624
Down Under
SR5 Offline
SR5  Offline
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,624
Down Under
Originally Posted By: 4WD
That Nulon looks like a cat killer
Im surprised there have not been more environmental folks in the middle of this
Maybe they are fully focused on causing black outs wink



Nulon does say:
Quote:
NOTE: Not recommended for vehicles fitted with catalytic converters.

Last edited by SR5; 02/20/18 06:47 AM. Reason: spelling

Penrite Vantage 10W40 SN & A3/B4 + Wesfil-Cooper Z154
Re: Where are the ANs? [Re: 4WD] #4671572
02/20/18 07:06 AM
02/20/18 07:06 AM
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,624
Down Under
SR5 Offline
SR5  Offline
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,624
Down Under
Originally Posted By: 4WD
That Nulon looks like a cat killer


But great for preventing LSPI as Moly & Zinc both reduce LSPI events.

But yeah....it's not for the average grocery getter.


Penrite Vantage 10W40 SN & A3/B4 + Wesfil-Cooper Z154
Re: Where are the ANs? [Re: PeterPolyol] #4672381
02/20/18 08:49 PM
02/20/18 08:49 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,351
toronto
PeterPolyol Offline OP
PeterPolyol  Offline OP
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,351
toronto
Interesting bit about the high temp oxidation and coking tests test, Tom. 218-282 Celcius is pretty extreme but lines right up with how well POEs perform in turbos and the roastiest parts of an engine.
Mola, that was the thread I stumbled across again which got me asking about AN use in today's market. Any specific reasons why you guys don't really bother with ANs anymore- price:performance just not there?

As for finished engine oils, google only pulled up the Aussie blends SR5 posted that are clearly stating AN use outright, the rest of the results were mostly sales literature from base oil suppliers. The 'pros' seemed to outweigh the cons as I was specifically looking out for the disadvantages.. but not much talk about that. There were also a few resources comparing the cleanliness and deposit fighting properties of the ANs, so I had to ask.

I don't doubt Nulon and Penrite have their stuff sorted out with those race oils, there have got to be more engine oils out there with AN or even ABs, though they seem to be more popular in manufacturing industry and hydraulics than engine oils

https://www.stle.org/images/pdf/STLE_ORG...pplications.pdf


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