Will we see -0w oils in the future?

[Superflan]

Originally Posted By: Whimsey

In some lawnmower engines I believe. You just add oil as it burns or loses it. Yeah, that's good for longevity of mower engine for those of us that actually care for what we own

. I guess I'm old fashion and try to care for what I own to get the max usable life from it.


I change my mower oil 2 times a year, and portable genset once a year

 

[RooflessVW]

My pressure washer burns a couple ounces per run so I think the "just keep it topped up" recommendation will be just fine for it.

 

[GLG1]

0w-16 I think the Japanese Have or are working on a 0w-8
Do we really need oil lower viscosity than a 0w-20? IMO a few mpg's isn't a good compromise for engine longevity.

0w-16 group III synthetic base stock GF-6 has been used in japan for a decade; but don't the Japanese replace their engines at 30K miles?
so who cares if the oil don't protect up to 100K+ miles

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: GLG1
0w-16 I think the Japanese Have or are working on a 0w-8
Do we really need oil lower viscosity than a 0w-20? IMO a few mpg's isn't a good compromise for engine longevity.

The question and answers aren't about saving fuel nor engine longevity. They are about the existing cold cranking specification for a 0W oil and whether a lower spec may be created in the future. It's about starting the engine, not the operating temperature viscosity.

 

[GLG1]

https://noln.net/2017/06/30/skinny-ow-16-oil/

NOLN: What type of fuel efficiency increase are you seeing with 0W-16 oil?
Miyamoto: So we tested a Honda Fit on a dynamometer. The 0W-16 showed an improvement in fuel economy by 2 percent when compared to 0W-20.
Takahashi: Two percent doesn’t sound like much just car by car, but when you look at the overall carbon footprint one company can make by saving 2 percent, it is quite substantial — especially when car companies like Toyota are selling millions of cars a year. Saving 2 percent on half of that fleet really makes a difference environmentally.

NOLN: What are some of the concerns about 0W-16 oils?
Miyamoto: [Some may be worried that] lowering viscosity might cause increased wear or a pressure issue.
Takahashi: Those were concerns with having such a low viscosity oil, but with more than 15 years of background in 0W-16 oil, we are able to address those issues and create a benefit of increasing fuel efficiency, when compared to 0W-20 oil.

NOLN: Can you share some information about what you’ve been doing with 0W-16 oils in Japan?
Miyamoto: 0W-16 oil was introduced in Japan before 2000. 0W-16 showed higher fuel economy than 0W-20 engine oil. It will also give you remarkable quick engine starts at cold temperatures. There are several concerns [about 0W-16 oils] due to their lower viscosity, like increased wear, increased oil consumption and lower oil pressure. But our long history [with 0W-16] has addressed these concerns. The 0W- 16 project is just the beginning of what JXTG Nippon Oil is striving to do to offset carbon footprints. Actually, we are currently working on an 0W-8 oil.
Takahashi: We are taking our knowledge and what we have already been doing in the past in Japan and trying to expand it here in the States. There are products like the 0W-8 oil that we have already been working on — it’s been a couple of years since we started filling some cars with it back in Japan. We don’t know as of yet when it will be coming to the U.S. market, but there will be a target point for that in the future. We have been doing 0W-16 oil since the late 1990s, and it’s finally coming out here in the U.S. market.

 

[Triple_Se7en]

Originally Posted By: Superflan
Originally Posted By: Whimsey

In some lawnmower engines I believe. You just add oil as it burns or loses it. Yeah, that's good for longevity of mower engine for those of us that actually care for what we own

. I guess I'm old fashion and try to care for what I own to get the max usable life from it.


I change my mower oil 2 times a year, and portable genset once a year


I change my push mower oil once every two years (18oz 5w-40 Rotella6 Synthetic)

 

[Crispysea]

The Japanese had negative interest rates for a while. They were giving borrowers money back! Will negative viscosity oil add metal back to the surfaces? I’d love to see the UOA for that!

 

[CR94]

Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
... No one ever indicated a 0W oil has no viscosity although many seem to infer that.
They illogically assume (which is not the same as to infer) 0W-XX has "water-like" viscosity. Even water has non-zero viscosity, albeit a lot less than cold 0W- oil.

 

[kschachn]

All of which has nothing to do with the 0W rating. Why are we going on about this in a thread about the cold cranking specification?

Originally Posted By: GLG1
https://noln.net/2017/06/30/skinny-ow-16-oil/

NOLN: What type of fuel efficiency increase are you seeing with 0W-16 oil?
Miyamoto: So we tested a Honda Fit on a dynamometer. The 0W-16 showed an improvement in fuel economy by 2 percent when compared to 0W-20.
Takahashi: Two percent doesn’t sound like much just car by car, but when you look at the overall carbon footprint one company can make by saving 2 percent, it is quite substantial — especially when car companies like Toyota are selling millions of cars a year. Saving 2 percent on half of that fleet really makes a difference environmentally.

NOLN: What are some of the concerns about 0W-16 oils?
Miyamoto: [Some may be worried that] lowering viscosity might cause increased wear or a pressure issue.
Takahashi: Those were concerns with having such a low viscosity oil, but with more than 15 years of background in 0W-16 oil, we are able to address those issues and create a benefit of increasing fuel efficiency, when compared to 0W-20 oil.

NOLN: Can you share some information about what you’ve been doing with 0W-16 oils in Japan?
Miyamoto: 0W-16 oil was introduced in Japan before 2000. 0W-16 showed higher fuel economy than 0W-20 engine oil. It will also give you remarkable quick engine starts at cold temperatures. There are several concerns [about 0W-16 oils] due to their lower viscosity, like increased wear, increased oil consumption and lower oil pressure. But our long history [with 0W-16] has addressed these concerns. The 0W- 16 project is just the beginning of what JXTG Nippon Oil is striving to do to offset carbon footprints. Actually, we are currently working on an 0W-8 oil.
Takahashi: We are taking our knowledge and what we have already been doing in the past in Japan and trying to expand it here in the States. There are products like the 0W-8 oil that we have already been working on — it’s been a couple of years since we started filling some cars with it back in Japan. We don’t know as of yet when it will be coming to the U.S. market, but there will be a target point for that in the future. We have been doing 0W-16 oil since the late 1990s, and it’s finally coming out here in the U.S. market.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: CR94
Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
... No one ever indicated a 0W oil has no viscosity although many seem to infer that.
They illogically assume (which is not the same as to infer) 0W-XX has "water-like" viscosity. Even water has non-zero viscosity, albeit a lot less than cold 0W- oil.

I think it is logical to assume that, just completely inaccurate. I've always thought it would have been better if the specification had been given a different value than a number.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: CR94
Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
... No one ever indicated a 0W oil has no viscosity although many seem to infer that.
They illogically assume (which is not the same as to infer) 0W-XX has "water-like" viscosity. Even water has non-zero viscosity, albeit a lot less than cold 0W- oil.

I think it is logical to assume that, just completely inaccurate. I've always thought it would have been better if the specification had been given a different value than a number.


They snookered themselves with their grading system.

Start with the number of seconds to flow through the apparatus, to get 50, 40, 30, 20 etc.

Then pick the best performing 20s and make 20W20, a winter/summer spec (some 20s didn't meet 20W), then cascade it down from there.

 

[Vaca]

Originally Posted By: CR94
Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
... No one ever indicated a 0W oil has no viscosity although many seem to infer that.
They illogically assume (which is not the same as to infer) 0W-XX has "water-like" viscosity. Even water has non-zero viscosity, albeit a lot less than cold 0W- oil.


The viscosity of water increases dramatically below 32F!

 

[aquariuscsm]

NothingW-Vapor

 

[PeterPolyol]

^Soon we discover Honda engineers have been working on Aerostatic Lubrication for the past 10 years

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
^Soon we discover Honda engineers have been working on Aerostatic Lubrication for the past 10 years

Haha right on!

 

[GLG1]

"All of which has nothing to do with the 0W rating. Why are we going on about this in a thread about the cold cranking specification?"


Because the title of the thread is "WILL WE SEE -0W OILS IN THE FUTURE?"
NOT "HOW OIL VISCOSITY AFFECT COLD CRANKING"

As I have implied 0w-XX oil has Nothing to do with cold cranking, and EVERYTHING with meeting fuel efficiency and Emissions standards.

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: Rolla07
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
The 0w-xx performance designation has no floor, only a ceiling for viscosity. Ergo, an oil could massively eclipse the CCS and MRV requirements and it would still handily fit under the 0w-xx designation.

As a practical point, given that the test temperature for MRV is -40C, a temperature not observed in most populous areas, pursuing a performance metric that divides the 0W-xx designation into a category lower at -45C wouldn't make a lot of sense.


Yep, this. Also, in colder areas that do see close to those temps have block heaters and other ways of keeping the oil at a temp that it will flow. No need for thinner.


That would be my thought. -40C is pretty darn cold.

-40C is where most electronics kinda give up. I'm sure there is stuff that works at colder temps, but OEM's aren't paying for that performance. -40C is a typical lower limit for sensors, at least the ones I'm familiar with (they'll work at colder, but in spec?). Some of those sensors don't have a means of warming up either--ABS sensors, for instance.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: GLG1
Because the title of the thread is "WILL WE SEE -0W OILS IN THE FUTURE?"
NOT "HOW OIL VISCOSITY AFFECT COLD CRANKING"

As I have implied 0w-XX oil has Nothing to do with cold cranking, and EVERYTHING with meeting fuel efficiency and Emissions standards.

Really? You're going to have to explain that a bit more for me to understand. Maybe start with how it it works in my BMW in northern Wisconsin where I use Castrol 0W-40. Does that have nothing to do with cold cranking and EVERYTHING to do with meeting fuel efficiency and emission standards?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: GLG1


As I have implied 0w-XX oil has Nothing to do with cold cranking, and EVERYTHING with meeting fuel efficiency and Emissions standards.


I'd like you to explain how a designation quite literally defined by pumping and cranking at very low temperatures (MRV and CCS) has nothing to do with cold cranking.

Or are you perhaps confused by the difference between the number that comes before the W and the one that comes after?

 

[GLG1]

First let me say I'm not trying to be confrontational or a jerk, If I did I apologize.

I shouldn't say ow-xx oil has nothing to do with cold cranking and low ambient temp running; My point is it's a small point in relation to the other benefits of a light viscosity oil.

The point I'm trying to convey Is that In the past Oil viscosity's 5w-40, 5w-30, 10w-30, & 10w-40 were adequate down to 30-F 20-30 years ago. 0w-xx oils were primarily created to meet fuel efficiency, tighter EPA emissions standards, Tighter bearing clearances and oil passages, VVT(variable valve timing) LSPI (Low Speed Preignition) and other Issues with DGI (Direct Gas Injection) engines. Thanks to Synthetic Oils older vehicles/engines can crank and run in those extreme sub 0-F temps. on 5w-40, 5w-30, 10w-30 to 10w-40 with no problems.

For poop's and grin's I used leftover 0w-20 oil for a vehicle I sold in my 97' Dodge 5.9 with 130K miles. The engine knocked when cold, the oil pressure light illuminated in the summer when at operating temp. I switched back to synthetic 10w-30 and all of those Issues Disappeared.

I think cold cranking oil performance is less of an issue than it's being made out to be (with modern synthetic oil). It's not like there are a lot of vehicles with cold "Molasses" dyno oil in the sump that only 0w-xx oil will cure. (there are a lot of viscosity's to choose from)