odd with ultr, fram does not have the whole market

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: CR94
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
... Only half way scientific way to determine how much crud it caught would be to fill it full of oil when new and accurately weight it, then do the same thing after an OCI to see the change in weight.
That won't work unless you also flush out (with volatile solvents?) all the absorbed oil, which will likely far outweigh the "crud" from a healthy engine, even if you've tried for weeks to soak it out with paper towels, etc.


Don't have to wash anything out. The difference in new vs used weight of the filter when completely full of oil will basically tell you how much crud the filter caught over the OCI.

 

[dnewton3]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: CR94
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
... Only half way scientific way to determine how much crud it caught would be to fill it full of oil when new and accurately weight it, then do the same thing after an OCI to see the change in weight.
That won't work unless you also flush out (with volatile solvents?) all the absorbed oil, which will likely far outweigh the "crud" from a healthy engine, even if you've tried for weeks to soak it out with paper towels, etc.


Don't have to wash anything out. The difference in new vs used weight of the filter when completely full of oil will basically tell you how much crud the filter caught over the OCI.



I would disagree. The delta weight differential would be so minimally small we could make no conclusions whatsoever.


Imagine a 5-gal bucket full of pea gravel (represents media). Now fill it with water (the oil). Now take a handful of sand and mix it in (represents particulate). Now try that experiment 30 times, to understand the normal variation of the weight of oil, filter differences, etc.

There's no way in Hades that we could "measure" the amount of particulate from a normal OFCI in a filter in practical BITOG terms. The typical filter capacity, depending upon brand and design, maybe between 10-30 grams. The typical filter weighs WAY more than that; a few pounds give or take based on construction.


First you need to know the average weight of the filters, and how much variation there is.
Then you need to know the average weight of the oil, and how much variation of volume you induce.
Etc ...


There are 453 grams per pound. If a filter weighs 2 pounds, that's over 900 grams. Now add the weight of oil to the weight of the filter ... And we're trying to distinguish the DIFFERENCE IN PARTICULATE LOADING of a few grams???

The variation of the filter loaded with oil will probably be +/- 30 grams; that's as much as the entire holding capacity of the filter!

It's not a "half way scientific way" at all. It's ludicrous. The variation of inputs will FAR exceed the ability to discern particulate loading.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Don't have to wash anything out. The difference in new vs used weight of the filter when completely full of oil will basically tell you how much crud the filter caught over the OCI.


The standard laboratory procedure would be to wash the media with solvent and collect the residue which would be dried and weighed. It could then be examined and perhaps digested and spectroscopically analyzed if you wanted to know the makeup. There is far too much variability in the media and retained liquid weight to get anything conclusive if you tried it wet. You can't even do that in the lab with filter paper cones.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I would disagree. The delta weight differential would be so minimally small we could make no conclusions whatsoever.

There's no way in Hades that we could "measure" the amount of particulate from a normal OFCI in a filter in practical BITOG terms. The typical filter capacity, depending upon brand and design, maybe between 10-30 grams. The typical filter weighs WAY more than that; a few pounds give or take based on construction.


A gigantic filter full of oil might weigh a few pounds, but most normal sized filters when empty weigh less than 300 grams.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrAbxCZlZpE&t=265s

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
First you need to know the average weight of the filters, and how much variation there is.
Then you need to know the average weight of the oil, and how much variation of volume you induce.
Etc ...


Not talking about 'average weight' and variation between 10 filters of the same brand & model. You'd weigh the specific filter you put on the car. Weight of the oil per volume shouldn't change much at all unless you're doing this when the ambient temperature difference between measurements is huge. Just do the testing inside the house where the temperature is basically constant.

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
There are 453 grams per pound. If a filter weighs 2 pounds, that's over 900 grams. Now add the weight of oil to the weight of the filter ... And we're trying to distinguish the DIFFERENCE IN PARTICULATE LOADING of a few grams???

The variation of the filter loaded with oil will probably be +/- 30 grams; that's as much as the entire holding capacity of the filter!


I agree, the biggest challenge and variable would be filling the filter with oil to the same exact level. What I'd do is make sure it's completely vertical and fill it to the point it was just starting to overflow the base gasket.

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
It's not a "half way scientific way" at all. It's ludicrous. The variation of inputs will FAR exceed the ability to discern particulate loading.


Could be, but it's less ludicrous then just "looking" at a filter to determine if it's loaded up too much or not, especially on a full synthetic media filter due to depth filtering. That was my premise of calling it 'half way scientific'. This was mentioned as a possible way to try and get a feel in your garage for how many grams of crud have been caught without cutting the filter open and washing out all the debris from the media, which is obviously a better way to do it as kschachn mentions above.

Anyway, it would be a fun experiment to try. Could do it without cutting the filter, and then cut out the media and solvent wash it to measure the weight of the crud and see if there is any correlation between the two methods. Wouldn't really know unless you tried it.