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#4668798 - 02/17/18 02:31 PM More Elec. Cap Failures
sleddriver Offline


Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 4597
Loc: Central Texas
A day ago, the Pan. HD recorder failed to light. Opened the hood last night to find another case of cap failure. The first one I saw was on the far left edge of photo 1. Next I pulled the HD & cage and discovered the others below it:





Manuf. date is April 2004. Not all caps are showing signs of failure, however since the PS board feeds the unit + HD, I'll be recapping it to keep from having to do this again. Panasonic did a nice job here in their PS design by including a LC line filter and transient protection.

Time to warm up the iron.........
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#4668805 - 02/17/18 02:36 PM Re: More Elec. Cap Failures [Re: sleddriver]
Chris142 Offline


Registered: 06/05/03
Posts: 16811
Loc: Deplorable in apple valley, ca
Can you explain to a dummy how to know what to look for?
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#4668813 - 02/17/18 02:42 PM Re: More Elec. Cap Failures [Re: Chris142]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 36416
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Chris142
Can you explain to a dummy how to know what to look for?


The bulged-top capacitors.
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#4668817 - 02/17/18 02:46 PM Re: More Elec. Cap Failures [Re: sleddriver]
JMJNet Offline


Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 928
Loc: TX, USA
When the top part of capacitor is "bulging", that means it is bad, some may rupture also.

To OP, depends on the application, if you can find a higher voltage capacitor with the same capacitance, that may prevent you from re-capping in the future. Replace 10V with 16/20V or whatever is available at higher voltage?


Edited by JMJNet (02/17/18 02:47 PM)
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#4668820 - 02/17/18 02:50 PM Re: More Elec. Cap Failures [Re: Chris142]
sleddriver Offline


Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 4597
Loc: Central Texas
Originally Posted By: Chris142
Can you explain to a dummy how to know what to look for?
In photo 1, most caps appear to have evenly shiny tops. The bad ones have one quadrant that's dark grey. Reason is their top is no longer flat, thus not evenly reflecting light.

On the side shots you can see the 'bulge' easier, especially the one that's leaked meaning the top expanded enough to rupture the "curve" stamped into it. The manuf. does this to give it a place to expand. Also makes it more noticeable.

However even a smooth top cap can have a high ESR and/or the value can be too far out of spec. I'll cut a few open after getting this repaired.

For an internal view of a failed cap, see my other thread on "Parasound".
_________________________
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#4668834 - 02/17/18 02:59 PM Re: More Elec. Cap Failures [Re: JMJNet]
sleddriver Offline


Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 4597
Loc: Central Texas
Originally Posted By: JMJNet
To OP, depends on the application, if you can find a higher voltage capacitor with the same capacitance, that may prevent you from re-capping in the future. Replace 10V with 16/20V or whatever is available at higher voltage?
Yep. I did this on my post regarding the Parasound...replaced 65V caps with 80V.

Also on my fuel pump relay fix. Replaced 16V cap with 25V. (16 is way too low.....)

My line voltage here is about 125VAC. Some older equipment is designed around "110VAC". Higher V means increased thermal dissipation, which can shorten life. This was a HUGE problem in the HK Citation 7 I posted about here years ago. The heat badly damaged the ckt board, cooked several components and caused the thermal fuse in the main PS transformer to melt! It's being fed a lower VAC now and is given a hard off to shut the PS down when not in use. Otherwise the PS is on 24/7, dissipating lots of heat. That's bad design...
_________________________
1998 Volvo V70 T5 226,808 mi. Original Owner.
M1 10W-30 HM
"It's never a mistake to buy tools, defined broadly. They're not a cost, they're an investment." - J.B. Peterson

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#4668851 - 02/17/18 03:18 PM Re: More Elec. Cap Failures [Re: sleddriver]
CorvairGeek Offline


Registered: 09/07/06
Posts: 112
Loc: Idaho
I've changed so many I have lost count. I think they (the defective ones, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague ) were in the supply chain long after the supply was supposed to have been fixed. I see Wikipedia is now saying through 2007. My favorites have been TEAPO and CAPXON. They seem to always be failed in anything I open up. Never seen any repeat failures with quality replacements (assuming no design issue).
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#4668863 - 02/17/18 03:34 PM Re: More Elec. Cap Failures [Re: sleddriver]
AndyB Offline


Registered: 11/08/15
Posts: 12
Loc: St.Cloud MN.
Try to up the temp rating to 105* caps. There are a lot of cheap caps out there.

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#4668919 - 02/17/18 04:49 PM Re: More Elec. Cap Failures [Re: sleddriver]
Papa Bear Offline


Registered: 08/11/05
Posts: 7046
Loc: Leamington, ON, Canada ..... r...
Years ago when I was in electronics I remember the SMPS circuits would get a leaky cap in the voltage regulation feedback circuit (usually a low value cap like a 1u or a .47u) and that allowed the voltage to creep up blowing other filter caps in the power supply.
When you change your caps be sure the output voltages of the power supply are correct.
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#4668972 - 02/17/18 05:53 PM Re: More Elec. Cap Failures [Re: sleddriver]
Reddy45 Online   shocked


Registered: 08/15/08
Posts: 2959
Loc: USA
Never knew this was a recognized phenomenon. I was an IT tech back then and diagnosed many Dell Optiplex computers that had this problem.

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#4668979 - 02/17/18 06:05 PM Re: More Elec. Cap Failures [Re: sleddriver]
Linctex Offline


Registered: 12/31/16
Posts: 6148
Loc: Waco, TX
This is a real problem in all electronics across all but the highest-end lines.
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#4668996 - 02/17/18 06:20 PM Re: More Elec. Cap Failures [Re: sleddriver]
JHZR2 Offline



Registered: 12/14/02
Posts: 41758
Loc: New Jersey
I was going to say... nature of the beast, no?

Will be looking forward to repair shots. Resoldering parts on boards is a great skill.

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#4669022 - 02/17/18 07:01 PM Re: More Elec. Cap Failures [Re: sleddriver]
i_hate_autofraud Offline


Registered: 05/19/16
Posts: 704
Loc: Canada

Manufacturers like Panasonic, Sony, etc, can pick electrolytic filter capacitors that have a specific life, ie, so they pop
in 3-4 yrs etc, thus you buy a new TV etc. Seen that. Cheap computer motherboards go that route a lot.

The PS board (power supply) is typically a high frequency "switch-mode" power supply that no longer uses a
heavy 60Hz line transformer. These caps see high switching frequencies and currents, so if you recap, look for
"Low ESR" caps, meaning "low effective series resistance" plus the voltage rating, capacitance value and temperature rating on them.

High switching currents in the cap generates heat that over time gases the electrolyte bulging the case at the top, you'll note
the cases have grooves on top, so they can 'burst' but not explode old-school. We're not talking a lot of heat here an extra 1/4 watt
will age a cap that should be stone cold. Electrolytic caps also have significant Inductance and Resistance that becomes a big
issue when ripple currents can be several Amps at 30 to 50 KHz!

Low ESR caps take more time to get, but will last way longer. Ebay will show some results if you search "low ESR cap", etc.

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#4669024 - 02/17/18 07:04 PM Re: More Elec. Cap Failures [Re: sleddriver]
Chris142 Offline


Registered: 06/05/03
Posts: 16811
Loc: Deplorable in apple valley, ca
Thanks I never knew about bulging caps
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87 F250 traveler 15w40
04 Tahoe super-s 10w30
Z400 castrol T 10w40
Can am maveric edge 5w40
57 case tractor 15w40

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#4669058 - 02/17/18 07:52 PM Re: More Elec. Cap Failures [Re: i_hate_autofraud]
sleddriver Offline


Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 4597
Loc: Central Texas
The Panasonic PS used in this player isn't a switcher. Good old linear.

I've been buying parts from Mouser for decades now. Also from Digi-key. They only stock NEW parts. EB can be such a [censored] shoot. If I'm going to spend the time, I'll only use top grade, new parts, from a major supplier like Mouser or Digi-key.
_________________________
1998 Volvo V70 T5 226,808 mi. Original Owner.
M1 10W-30 HM
"It's never a mistake to buy tools, defined broadly. They're not a cost, they're an investment." - J.B. Peterson

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