Question about Baldwin Filters

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I'm looking at getting an oversized filter for my Subaru, and I've been looking at Baldwin Filters since they're only filters I can find that more or less match the OEM 23psi bypass rating.

I'm considering filter like the Baldwin B161-S or the Baldwin B1425.

If you look at the links, one of the filters is labelled a "Full Flow Lube Spin-on", and the other is just labelled "Lube Spin on". Is there a difference between these? Is the B1425 meant to be used as a bypass filter instead of a full flow filter?
 
Both are full flow spin-ons. They wouldn't list specific vehicle brand/makes that don't incorporate a by-pass filter if it was meant to be a by-pass filter.
 
Originally Posted By: twj348
I'm looking at getting an oversized filter for my Subaru,


I think the Fram XG7317 is the one you want.
 
Originally Posted By: dave123
Seriously what's wrong with OEM.


Hmmm..what is wrong with OEM? Just trying to find something that may be better?
 
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: twj348
I'm looking at getting an oversized filter for my Subaru,


I think the Fram XG7317 is the one you want.


I like the Fram Ultras, but this one has a 13psi bypass. Subaru specs 23psi. Since it is a bit larger than stock, that somewhat compensates for the lower bypass pressure setting, but it'll still be in bypass more often than the stock filter. One of the reasons I want a larger filter is so that the filter isn't in bypass as often. I live in a cold climate and take a lot of short trips with a cold engine, so I think this is kind of important.
 
Originally Posted By: Gebo
Originally Posted By: dave123
Seriously what's wrong with OEM.


Hmmm..what is wrong with OEM? Just trying to find something that may be better?


The OEM filter is fine, I just like to tinker with things, for better or worse. In theory, a larger filter won't be in bypass as often (can be important for short trips in cold weather), and won't have to be changed as often (I'm considering changing it every second oil change, 6000km OCIs). Supposedly the OEM Subaru filters have gone down in quality since they started being produced by Fram, but I haven't seen any data or specs to support this claim.
 
The Subaru filters are the ones designed specifically for their cars special needs. The others work on a lot of others that have various specs. I had qc issues with Baldwin B37 size. The center tube was cut short with a ragged edge exposed inside the filter, and the opening for the adbv space was only about 1mm for flow. The flow was probably ok but I don't like tinkering that much. So I wasted $11 on two filters I won't use.
 
A filter will go into bypass due to very thick oil, very high pressure, etc. The size of a filter has nothing to do with when it will go into bypass.
 
Originally Posted By: xtell
A filter will go into bypass due to very thick oil, very high pressure, etc. The size of a filter has nothing to do with when it will go into bypass.
I disagree-more media surface area means more space, to squeeze more oil through, and even catch more dirt! A bigger filter would definitely go into bypass less often.
 
Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
Originally Posted By: xtell
A filter will go into bypass due to very thick oil, very high pressure, etc. The size of a filter has nothing to do with when it will go into bypass.
I disagree-more media surface area means more space, to squeeze more oil through, and even catch more dirt! A bigger filter would definitely go into bypass less often.


Yes, and aside from the larger media area, the Baldwin filter also seems to have a less restrictive baseplate design (7-hole vs 5-hole), which should give the engine more pressure and flow even when the oil is warm and the filter is not in bypass. My oil pump is a pretty high flow design (17GPM at 6000rpm), so I wouldn't be surprised if there was a large pressure drop across the small OEM filter even with warm oil.
 
Originally Posted By: xtell
A filter will go into bypass due to very thick oil, very high pressure, etc. The size of a filter has nothing to do with when it will go into bypass.


If you're talking about high engine oil pressure, the filter's bypass valve does not function due to engine oil pressure - only due to the pressure difference across the media. You could have 150 PSI of oil pressure and only 4 PSI of delta-p across the media depending on the oil flow rate, oil viscosity and media flow performance.
 
Originally Posted By: twj348
... the Baldwin filter also seems to have a less restrictive baseplate design (7-hole vs 5-hole), which should give the engine more pressure and flow even when the oil is warm and the filter is not in bypass.


The base plate and center tube holes don't contribute to much of the total delta-p across the filter. Most of the delta-p (probably ~90% of it) happens across the media. If you do a measurement of all the base plate holes, and all the center tube holes, you'll most likely find their area is more than the area of the ID of the mounting spud the filter spins on to.

Originally Posted By: twj348
My oil pump is a pretty high flow design (17GPM at 6000rpm), so I wouldn't be surprised if there was a large pressure drop across the small OEM filter even with warm oil.


With that much oil flow it will certainly have a higher potential max delta-p since a typical flow vs delta-p curve with hot oil will look similar to the graph below. That's also one reason Subaru OEM filters have a high bypass setting, to ensure the filter doesn't go into bypass due to the high oil flow volume. Keep in mind a filter's bypass valve setting is also determined by the flow characteristics of the filter. In other words, it's possible the Subaru OEM filters are pretty flow restrictive, so Subaru has bumped the bypass valve up to compensate for the expected max delta-p.

 
I am not knocking Baldwin for any reasons, just reporting what I saw on B37. The can is thick, the media thick and plentiful, and a nice bypass valve. But as the picture shows the adbv has a very small space to open, so I wouldn't be so concerned about baseplate holes more than this. I think it is actually enough space to match the inlet holes although doesn't look it. The other defects were center tube cut short(no pic couldn't get it) and a tilted baseplate thread, pictured. The thread is visibly off perpendicular to the baseplate.




 
Dang, not liking the off axis threaded mounting hole. I'd imaging the base gasket would have a hard time sealing once the filter was mounted on the engine.
 
I've used Baldwin filters on my ORT, cars and motorcycles, have over two million miles with them. Never had a bad one but just like any company that makes a lot of products you can get a damaged one from time to time.

I would call Baldwin and see what the GPM rate of the B161-S filter has. I run that filter on my Honda 1100 motorcycle but would not run it on my S2000 even though it would fit. I run the B202 on my S2000 but I doubt it will fit your car. See if the XG3593A will fit your car, that should give you the GPM you need and it will filter the oil better than the Baldwin filter.

ROD
 
ZeeOSix

Let me see if I got this right, because I do not want to pass along inaccurate information. When I mentioned "very high pressure" causing an oil filter to go into bypass, what I was referring to was pressure on the inlet side of the filter media, like if it was clogged up with debris. The second thing is if you have a small filter and a real big filter, would not the oil flow through both be the same pressure wise and volume wise? I'd appreciate any input to set me straight.

xtell
 
Originally Posted By: xtell
ZeeOSix

Let me see if I got this right, because I do not want to pass along inaccurate information. When I mentioned "very high pressure" causing an oil filter to go into bypass, what I was referring to was pressure on the inlet side of the filter media, like if it was clogged up with debris.

I give you some examples to help explain what's going on with a delta-p situation in an oil filter.

As a filter gets clogged the delta-p across the media increases. The "pressure on the inlet side" of the filter is relative. In other words, you could have 150 PSI on the inlet side of the filter, and 145 PSI on the outlet side, so the delta-p would only be 5 PSI. If the bypass valve was set to 12 PSI it would never open in this case.

Or you could have 60 PSI on the inlet side and 45 PSI on the outlet side, which would be a delta-p across the filter of 15 PSI, in which case a bypass valve set to 12 PSI would be opened up.

The filter's bypass valve operation doesn't care what the inlet pressure is on the filter, just what the delta-p is across the media.

The main factors that cause delta-p across the oil filter are:
1) The flow resistance of the media (The resistance goes up as the filter gets dirty. Also media area is a factor to flow resistance).
2) The viscosity of the oil (Get more delta-p with thicker oil).
3) The flow rate of the oil through the media (Get more delta-p with increased flow. More flow with increased RPM).

It's a good idea to not rev up engines too much in really cold weather after a cold start is because of 2) and 3).

Originally Posted By: xtell
The second thing is if you have a small filter and a real big filter, would not the oil flow through both be the same pressure wise and volume wise? I'd appreciate any input to set me straight.

xtell

If all things stay the same except for the size of the filter, the delta-p across the media in the bigger filter will be less because the increase in total surface area helps the filter flow better. The inlet pressure will be a hair lower in the larger filter because the delta-p across the larger filter will be slightly less by just a few PSI.

Yes, the volume going through them both will be the same at the same engine RPM because of the positive displacement oil pump. If you put the same volume of oil through a media area that is twice as large then the resulting delta-p across the media will be less. That's also a reason that good flowing oil filters typically have a bypass valve with a lower opening pressure.

If the oil pressure sensor is located after the oil filter, it will read the same with both filters installed (as long as the pump is not in pressure relief) because the flow rate at the sensor is the same at the same PRM (positive displacement oil pump again). The oil pressure is a product of X GPM of oil flow going through a fixed flow resistance - ie, the whole oiling system of the engine in this case. If the oil pressure sensor was located before the filter (rare case), then you would see the pressure at that location go up slightly if the filter was more flow restrictive, or go down slightly if the filter was not as flow restrictive.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: xtell
ZeeOSix

Let me see if I got this right, because I do not want to pass along inaccurate information. When I mentioned "very high pressure" causing an oil filter to go into bypass, what I was referring to was pressure on the inlet side of the filter media, like if it was clogged up with debris.

I give you some examples to help explain what's going on with a delta-p situation in an oil filter.

As a filter gets clogged the delta-p across the media increases. The "pressure on the inlet side" of the filter is relative. In other words, you could have 150 PSI on the inlet side of the filter, and 145 PSI on the outlet side, so the delta-p would only be 5 PSI. If the bypass valve was set to 12 PSI it would never open in this case.

Or you could have 60 PSI on the inlet side and 45 PSI on the outlet side, which would be a delta-p across the filter of 15 PSI, in which case a bypass valve set to 12 PSI would be opened up.

The filter's bypass valve operation doesn't care what the inlet pressure is on the filter, just what the delta-p is across the media.

The main factors that cause delta-p across the oil filter are:
1) The flow resistance of the media (The resistance goes up as the filter gets dirty. Also media area is a factor to flow resistance).
2) The viscosity of the oil (Get more delta-p with thicker oil).
3) The flow rate of the oil through the media (Get more delta-p with increased flow. More flow with increased RPM).

It's a good idea to not rev up engines too much in really cold weather after a cold start is because of 2) and 3).

Originally Posted By: xtell
The second thing is if you have a small filter and a real big filter, would not the oil flow through both be the same pressure wise and volume wise? I'd appreciate any input to set me straight.

xtell

If all things stay the same except for the size of the filter, the delta-p across the media in the bigger filter will be less because the increase in total surface area helps the filter flow better. The inlet pressure will be a hair lower in the larger filter because the delta-p across the larger filter will be slightly less by just a few PSI.

Yes, the volume going through them both will be the same at the same engine RPM because of the positive displacement oil pump. If you put the same volume of oil through a media area that is twice as large then the resulting delta-p across the media will be less. That's also a reason that good flowing oil filters typically have a bypass valve with a lower opening pressure.

If the oil pressure sensor is located after the oil filter, it will read the same with both filters installed (as long as the pump is not in pressure relief) because the flow rate at the sensor is the same at the same PRM (positive displacement oil pump again). The oil pressure is a product of X GPM of oil flow going through a fixed flow resistance - ie, the whole oiling system of the engine in this case. If the oil pressure sensor was located before the filter (rare case), then you would see the pressure at that location go up slightly if the filter was more flow restrictive, or go down slightly if the filter was not as flow restrictive.


Completely and utterly correct. Your explanation and examples are spot on.
Too bad you have to explain this over and over and over and over and .....


I will add this ... There are only two ways to view this topic
1) filters often go into bypass
2) filters rarely go into bypass

As for condition 1, what of it? If this is frequent, show me that it matters, please. Anyone? Anyone got any data to prove that frequent BP events cause harm? We see bazillions of UOAs that have great wear data. If BP events are frequent, then apparently we can conclude nothing ill comes of it.

Or, condition 2; so what? If BP events are rare (which is my personal belief based on Allens data), why worry? What does it matter? If this is infrequent, the damage must be minimal.


UOAs tell us that wear rates are typically low on most equipment that is reasonably maintained and in good shape. The brand/grade of oil you choose, the type filter you select, and the frequency of BP events, are all moot. Macro data proves that these topics are NOT the controlling factors in wear rates.
 
Last edited:
ZeeOSix and dnewton3,

Thank you both very much for taking the time to go into a detailed description explaining oil flow through the filter / filter media. Now I see how much delta-p plays a roll in the function of the bypass. Very Interesting.

Thank you,

xtell
 
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