Redline base oils
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Originally Posted By: JAG
Thanks Tom. Do you know which base oil groups, if any, are absolutely required to be disclosed in the U.S. MSDS sheets?
Offhand I do not know the minimum requirements for reporting. The SDS is intended to report hazardous ingredients as well as potential dangers, precautions, and proper handling. Most ester base oils are not considered hazardous and are usually not reported, although a supplier may list non-hazardous ingredients if they wish. PAOs are also non-hazardous, indeed they are food grade, yet it seems every SDS does list them. Might be some rules related to petroleum based hydrocarbons.
Thanks Tom. Do you know which base oil groups, if any, are absolutely required to be disclosed in the U.S. MSDS sheets?
Offhand I do not know the minimum requirements for reporting. The SDS is intended to report hazardous ingredients as well as potential dangers, precautions, and proper handling. Most ester base oils are not considered hazardous and are usually not reported, although a supplier may list non-hazardous ingredients if they wish. PAOs are also non-hazardous, indeed they are food grade, yet it seems every SDS does list them. Might be some rules related to petroleum based hydrocarbons.
Originally Posted By: bulwnkl
I missed what the point of the exercise was, but at least a bit of GC work has been done and posted at the Russian Oil Club site. Red Line always shows WAY more ester linkages than anything and everything else.
If you have a link I can interpret ester GC graphs.
I missed what the point of the exercise was, but at least a bit of GC work has been done and posted at the Russian Oil Club site. Red Line always shows WAY more ester linkages than anything and everything else.
If you have a link I can interpret ester GC graphs.
The point of the exercise was to estimate the % of ester in Red Line, based on typical densities of PAOs, esters, and additive packages used in motor oils as well as on typical % that additive package comprises in motor oils. Esters tend to have considerably higher densities than PAOs of similar viscosity. 20 and 30 weight motor oils typically have specific gravities between 0.84 and 0.85. Red Line specific gravities are around 0.888. What is making it so dense? Just esters or is the additive package extra dense and/or of an extra high treat rate? I made the assumption that it is extra dense just due to esters and estimated the percentage of esters.
MolaKule
Staff member
Here's the problem.
Supposed they used a low level of high density 30 cSt ester, some low density 4.0 cSt PAO, and some medium density 40 cSt PAO, in various proportions.
This would really skew your result.
Supposed they used a low level of high density 30 cSt ester, some low density 4.0 cSt PAO, and some medium density 40 cSt PAO, in various proportions.
This would really skew your result.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Here's the problem.
Supposed they used a low level of high density 30 cSt ester, some low density 4.0 cSt PAO, and some medium density 40 cSt PAO, in various proportions.
This would really skew your result.
Will you please provide densities for those three ingredients? I’d like to crank the numbers but I doubt they are using a small amount of ester based on the oxidation values of around 100 that we have often seen. I would also expect considerably lower pour point values if its base oils were almost completely PAO and the remainder a POE.
Here's the problem.
Supposed they used a low level of high density 30 cSt ester, some low density 4.0 cSt PAO, and some medium density 40 cSt PAO, in various proportions.
This would really skew your result.
Will you please provide densities for those three ingredients? I’d like to crank the numbers but I doubt they are using a small amount of ester based on the oxidation values of around 100 that we have often seen. I would also expect considerably lower pour point values if its base oils were almost completely PAO and the remainder a POE.
I am a truck driver and have my hazmat endorsement. On the MSDS your absolutely correct, transporting base oils usually do have a placard on them because it's a hydrocarbon. I would imagine a group 4 or group 5 would have a higher Flashpoint though
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Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
If you have a link I can interpret ester GC graphs.
It always takes me a decent amount of searching around, as I don’t read Russian and I don’t bookmark that stuff. If I find a nice graph of an evening, I’ll post it, Tom.
If you have a link I can interpret ester GC graphs.
It always takes me a decent amount of searching around, as I don’t read Russian and I don’t bookmark that stuff. If I find a nice graph of an evening, I’ll post it, Tom.
bulwnkl, I found part of the site but my work computer won't let me view it, so I couldn't find the page that hopefully contains data on Redline. Maybe you or someone can find the right page. If not, later this evening I will look for it.
http://www.oil-club.ru/forum/topic/7906-idealnye-masla-po-vashemu-mneniyu/page-30#entry628868
http://www.oil-club.ru/forum/topic/7906-idealnye-masla-po-vashemu-mneniyu/page-30#entry628868
MolaKule
Staff member
Here's another "wrench."
Suppose we observe ester peaks in an analysis plot? Many additives are themselves esters, such as the ashless dispersants, ZDDP, Boron, etc.
Unless you go further with more extensive analysis and more costly instrumentation, how would you know how much the additive contributes to the total ester content and how much the POE is contributing?
I.e, analyses processes are not as simple as posting a plot.
Suppose we observe ester peaks in an analysis plot? Many additives are themselves esters, such as the ashless dispersants, ZDDP, Boron, etc.
Unless you go further with more extensive analysis and more costly instrumentation, how would you know how much the additive contributes to the total ester content and how much the POE is contributing?
I.e, analyses processes are not as simple as posting a plot.
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Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Suppose we observe ester peaks in an analysis plot? Many additives are themselves esters, such as the ashless dispersants, ZDDP, Boron, etc.
Unless you go further with more extensive analysis and more costly instrumentation, how would you know how much the additive contributes to the total ester content and how much the POE is contributing?
True for some analysis techniques, such as FTIR, but the beauty of gas chromatography is that the polymers and metal containing compounds do not elute and interfere. It basically shows just volatile components such as the base oils and some anti-oxidants and allows a pretty clear picture of petroleum distillates, PAOs, and esters. It cannot distinguish among Groups I, II, and III mixtures but easily identifies PAOs up to at least the pentamers, and commonly used POEs, Diesters, and ANs.
Suppose we observe ester peaks in an analysis plot? Many additives are themselves esters, such as the ashless dispersants, ZDDP, Boron, etc.
Unless you go further with more extensive analysis and more costly instrumentation, how would you know how much the additive contributes to the total ester content and how much the POE is contributing?
True for some analysis techniques, such as FTIR, but the beauty of gas chromatography is that the polymers and metal containing compounds do not elute and interfere. It basically shows just volatile components such as the base oils and some anti-oxidants and allows a pretty clear picture of petroleum distillates, PAOs, and esters. It cannot distinguish among Groups I, II, and III mixtures but easily identifies PAOs up to at least the pentamers, and commonly used POEs, Diesters, and ANs.
I dug up some links from the Russian forum. I was hoping to find a graph of the IR spectrum results but did not. However, they do show the numerical values for oxidation and nitration from the ASTM E 2412 test. The oxidation level is 91 for the 5W-20 and 129 for the 5W-40, likely indicating more esters in it. I did not try to translate all of the text, but if someone does, they may find more noteworthy info. than I found. Ok, so here we go:
Red Line 5W-20
VOA test results forum page: http://www.oil-club.ru/forum/topic/8425-red-line-5w-20-svezhee/
VOA test results’ image: http://www.oil-club.ru/forum/uploads/monthly_09_2013/post-2-0-88326400-1378458363.jpg
You can also look at UOA results.
Many oils, including other Red Line viscosity grades are about 1/4 of the way down this page:
http://www.oil-club.ru/forum/topic/7906-idealnye-masla-po-vashemu-mneniyu/page-30#entry628868
What do you think, Tom?
Red Line 5W-20
VOA test results forum page: http://www.oil-club.ru/forum/topic/8425-red-line-5w-20-svezhee/
VOA test results’ image: http://www.oil-club.ru/forum/uploads/monthly_09_2013/post-2-0-88326400-1378458363.jpg
You can also look at UOA results.
Many oils, including other Red Line viscosity grades are about 1/4 of the way down this page:
http://www.oil-club.ru/forum/topic/7906-idealnye-masla-po-vashemu-mneniyu/page-30#entry628868
What do you think, Tom?
Hi Jag,
Yes I looked at that data yesterday. While I don't do VOAs, I believe the oxidation test data is based on the C=O bond absorption in FTIR. As such, it will detect all esters and other compounds having a C=O bond, including additives, but the Redline results are much higher than typical motor oils and the high readings are likely indicative of ester base oils. How much ester, however, is difficult to estimate by this method due to the number of variables.
What I was looking (hoping) for was Gas Chromatography graphs (GC) which will separate base oils from additives and allow identification and measurement of the specific base oils, including POEs, diesters, PAOs, and ANs.
Tom
Yes I looked at that data yesterday. While I don't do VOAs, I believe the oxidation test data is based on the C=O bond absorption in FTIR. As such, it will detect all esters and other compounds having a C=O bond, including additives, but the Redline results are much higher than typical motor oils and the high readings are likely indicative of ester base oils. How much ester, however, is difficult to estimate by this method due to the number of variables.
What I was looking (hoping) for was Gas Chromatography graphs (GC) which will separate base oils from additives and allow identification and measurement of the specific base oils, including POEs, diesters, PAOs, and ANs.
Tom
Hello Tom. I looked at most of oils’ oxidation values and none were as high as Red Line oils’ values. The one that came closest was in the 70s.
That’s too bad that the GC data is not available for Red Line oils. Do you know what that would cost? I might pay for it to be done.
I think the GC data is available for Mobil 1 0W-20 here: http://www.oil-club.ru/forum/topic/19614...e-3#entry553785
Does that provide what’s needed for you to estimate percentages of esters and other base oils? If so, what are your estimates? Thank you for helping with this!
That’s too bad that the GC data is not available for Red Line oils. Do you know what that would cost? I might pay for it to be done.
I think the GC data is available for Mobil 1 0W-20 here: http://www.oil-club.ru/forum/topic/19614...e-3#entry553785
Does that provide what’s needed for you to estimate percentages of esters and other base oils? If so, what are your estimates? Thank you for helping with this!
Hi Jag,
Those are FTIR graphs, not GC.
There is an SN spec test called Simulated Distillation by ASTM D6417 that measures volatility by GC. I have seen some GC graphs from this test that are run under conditions that would allow me to interpret the base oil composition, at least visually. I believe the test cost a couple hundred dollars, but I don't know if they include the GC graph with the results (I would think they would, certainly if requested).
There is also a company in Midland MI called Institute of Materials that sell test results for hundreds of motor oils, including the Simulated Distillation test. The prices for individual test results are quite low, but I'm not sure if they include the GC graph or what restrictions they may have on the use of the data.
Tom
Those are FTIR graphs, not GC.
There is an SN spec test called Simulated Distillation by ASTM D6417 that measures volatility by GC. I have seen some GC graphs from this test that are run under conditions that would allow me to interpret the base oil composition, at least visually. I believe the test cost a couple hundred dollars, but I don't know if they include the GC graph with the results (I would think they would, certainly if requested).
There is also a company in Midland MI called Institute of Materials that sell test results for hundreds of motor oils, including the Simulated Distillation test. The prices for individual test results are quite low, but I'm not sure if they include the GC graph or what restrictions they may have on the use of the data.
Tom
Thanks Tom. I’m surprised that the Institute of Materials would sell test results but that is good for us. I will look into that option.
Around 10 years ago the forum member bruce381 was kind enough to do the aniline point test on several synthetic oils that I sent him. He was interested in the results too. We were interested in which ones had low aniline point results, which would be an indicator of base oil mixture polarity. I think the oils were German Castrol’s 0W-30, Mobil 1 0W-40, and Mobil 1 5W-40 Turbo Diesel Truck. All of them had similar and quite high aniline points, which disappointed me. What do you think of that test for getting a rough idea of Red Line’s ester content?
Around 10 years ago the forum member bruce381 was kind enough to do the aniline point test on several synthetic oils that I sent him. He was interested in the results too. We were interested in which ones had low aniline point results, which would be an indicator of base oil mixture polarity. I think the oils were German Castrol’s 0W-30, Mobil 1 0W-40, and Mobil 1 5W-40 Turbo Diesel Truck. All of them had similar and quite high aniline points, which disappointed me. What do you think of that test for getting a rough idea of Red Line’s ester content?
Aniline point is not specific to esters. Only GC will give an accurate base oil profile. I ran a GC on the German Castrol some 11 years ago and found it to be based on PAO with a small amount of a polymeric branched ester (Ketjenlube).
Interesting. Now that you mention it, I remember reading about your findings back then. Ketjenlube is an interesting oil.
+2
Fantastic discussion. Thanks for divulging your professional experience Tom
Fantastic discussion. Thanks for divulging your professional experience Tom
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