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Redline base oils #4663355
02/11/18 09:41 PM
02/11/18 09:41 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,211
Fredericksburg, VA
JAG Offline OP
JAG  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,211
Fredericksburg, VA
The MSDS, dated from 2017, indicates a large percentage of two types of PAO. Esters are not listed but usually are not in MSDS sheets. Redline oils are famous for containing a lot of esters, so have they significantly changed the base oils toward less esters and more PAO? One approximate indicator of esters is when the motor oilís specific gravity is around 0.88 or more, which Redline has according to the MSDS. Another indicator of esters is when the oxidation level is tested in a VOA and the value is high (ex. 100), due to the oxygen atoms. The values Iíve seen in years past for Redline were around 100. I havenít seen any recent results on that. Here is the MSDS: https://w3apps.phillips66.com/NetMSDS/ViewPDF.aspx?fileName=828863&Language=EN&IssueDate=9%2f19%2f2017&SubFormat=USDS

Re: Redline base oils [Re: JAG] #4663377
02/11/18 10:03 PM
02/11/18 10:03 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,427
Michigan
BobsArmory Offline
BobsArmory  Offline

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,427
Michigan
Tagged


Keeping the forces of evil at bay
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Re: Redline base oils [Re: JAG] #4663389
02/11/18 10:27 PM
02/11/18 10:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,030
TX
robertcope Offline
robertcope  Offline

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,030
TX
I have a VOA and UOA from July 2017 where oxidation levels are high (98, 90). Polaris Labs performed the tests.

Re: Redline base oils [Re: robertcope] #4663400
02/11/18 10:58 PM
02/11/18 10:58 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,211
Fredericksburg, VA
JAG Offline OP
JAG  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,211
Fredericksburg, VA
Originally Posted By: robertcope
I have a VOA and UOA from July 2017 where oxidation levels are high (98, 90). Polaris Labs performed the tests.

Excellent, thanks! That settles the matter. After I made my post, I realized that long ago they didnít make 0W-X oils and it may be that they contain more PAO and less esters. The crazy low pour points point toward that. The MSDS covers all of their street motor oils and I wonder if the high percentage of PAO it lists is to cover the 0W-X oils.

Re: Redline base oils [Re: JAG] #4663464
02/12/18 01:05 AM
02/12/18 01:05 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,030
TX
robertcope Offline
robertcope  Offline

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,030
TX
I use the 10W-30, FWIW.

Re: Redline base oils [Re: JAG] #4663621
02/12/18 09:51 AM
02/12/18 09:51 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 39,828
Ontario, Canada
OVERKILL Offline
OVERKILL  Offline

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 39,828
Ontario, Canada
I'd wager it has been majority PAO the entire time. The product doesn't need a monumental dose of POE to benefit from it. I think being famous for ester content is being conflated with majority POE. I don't think it was ever stated by Redline that this was the case, it was assumed.


2019 RAM 1500 Sport - Mobil 1 EP 0w-20, FRAM Ultra
2016 Grand Cherokee SRT - Ravenol SSL 0w-40, FRAM Ultra
Re: Redline base oils [Re: OVERKILL] #4665040
02/13/18 07:02 PM
02/13/18 07:02 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 27,471
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Garak Offline
Garak  Offline

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 27,471
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Yes, I think Overkill has it here.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, Wix 57356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: Redline base oils [Re: JAG] #4665336
02/13/18 11:23 PM
02/13/18 11:23 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,211
Fredericksburg, VA
JAG Offline OP
JAG  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,211
Fredericksburg, VA
Iíve made a rough estimate of the percentage of PAO and esters, subject to the following assumptions:
1. Additive package and carrier oil comprises 20% of the assumed Red Line motor oil, having a specific gravity (sg) of 0.888.
2. The PAO has sg of 0.8326, assumed based on this PAO: PAO link
3. The ester has sg of 0.955, assumed based on this ester: Ester link
4. If the base oil were only PAO and the rest of the motor oil were 20% additive package, the sg would be 0.85. This is a typical 30 weight, non-ester motor oil density.

Using the weighted average formula, first, I calculated the sg of additive package as 0.9196
Then, I calculated the percentage of ester, out of the entire motor oil, as 35%. Percentage of PAO was calculated as 45%.
Relative to just the base oil portion of the motor oil, ester comprises 44%, while PAO comprises 56%.

That is obviously a majority of PAO but it is pretty close to 50/50.
Iím not surprised, given all of the test data that Iíve seen on Red Line oils.

Re: Redline base oils [Re: JAG] #4665597
02/14/18 10:30 AM
02/14/18 10:30 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,188
Virginia
Tom NJ Offline
Tom NJ  Offline

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,188
Virginia
Interesting effort, but too many assumptions and not enough accuracy. POEs that I know for a fact have been used in motor oils over the years range in density from 0.91 to 1.00, with the most commonly used being 0.95. The ester you reference by link above is a phthalate diester with a VI of 55 and is not used in motor oils.

Fact is we don't know what is used in the Redline oil, and a gas chromatogram is the only practical test method that can identify and quantify the PAO and ester used.

Re: Redline base oils [Re: JAG] #4665708
02/14/18 12:20 PM
02/14/18 12:20 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 6,204
Kalifornia Kollective
BrocLuno Offline
BrocLuno  Offline

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Posts: 6,204
Kalifornia Kollective
Yes, but even with some WAG numbers for sg, it seems that there is some significant percentage of POE. And that is what sets Redline apart from many others smile

Could do the same for Motul 300V and see how they compare ...


Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.
Re: Redline base oils [Re: OVERKILL] #4665710
02/14/18 12:24 PM
02/14/18 12:24 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,541
Massachusetts
deven Offline
deven  Offline

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,541
Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I don't think it was ever stated by Redline that this was the case, it was assumed.

Dave at Redline has told me multiple times that the base oil is 100% polyolester. But this was nearly 5 years ago so things may have changed!

Last edited by deven; 02/14/18 12:29 PM.

Proud user of ROYAL PURPLE products!

2019 BMW 330i X-drive(Factory Fill)

KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID. IT'S ONLY OIL
Re: Redline base oils [Re: deven] #4665720
02/14/18 12:29 PM
02/14/18 12:29 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 39,828
Ontario, Canada
OVERKILL Offline
OVERKILL  Offline

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 39,828
Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: deven
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I don't think it was ever stated by Redline that this was the case, it was assumed.

Dave at Redline has told me multiple times that the base oil is 100% ester. But this was nearly 5 years ago so things may have changed!


Would like to see an MSDS from back then eh?

Would seem to me that a POE/PAO blend would likely result in a better product for automotive applications shrug


2019 RAM 1500 Sport - Mobil 1 EP 0w-20, FRAM Ultra
2016 Grand Cherokee SRT - Ravenol SSL 0w-40, FRAM Ultra
Re: Redline base oils [Re: OVERKILL] #4665722
02/14/18 12:31 PM
02/14/18 12:31 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,541
Massachusetts
deven Offline
deven  Offline

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,541
Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: deven
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I don't think it was ever stated by Redline that this was the case, it was assumed.

Dave at Redline has told me multiple times that the base oil is 100% ester. But this was nearly 5 years ago so things may have changed!


Would like to see an MSDS from back then eh?

Would seem to me that a POE/PAO blend would likely result in a better product for automotive applications shrug

Agreed. I just never had the need to second guess Dave. He's always been a stand up kinda guy but looking back ya a MSDS would have been great.


Proud user of ROYAL PURPLE products!

2019 BMW 330i X-drive(Factory Fill)

KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID. IT'S ONLY OIL
Re: Redline base oils [Re: JAG] #4665791
02/14/18 01:36 PM
02/14/18 01:36 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 19,730
Dallas,Tx USA
aquariuscsm Offline
aquariuscsm  Offline

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Posts: 19,730
Dallas,Tx USA
Years ago Redine's site advertised something to the effect of "Our ester based lubricants". There was no mention of pao whatsoever. Maybe after the buyout their chemistry changed,like Royal Purple's did when they got bought out.


1996 Nissan 300ZX 5-speed,Arctic Pearl(#175 of 300)
Quaker State Ultimate Durability 10W30
2012 Honda Accord Coupe EX-L 2.4,auto,San Marino Red
Pennzoil Platinum HM 10W30

Re: Redline base oils [Re: Tom NJ] #4665820
02/14/18 02:10 PM
02/14/18 02:10 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,211
Fredericksburg, VA
JAG Offline OP
JAG  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,211
Fredericksburg, VA
Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Interesting effort, but too many assumptions and not enough accuracy. POEs that I know for a fact have been used in motor oils over the years range in density from 0.91 to 1.00, with the most commonly used being 0.95. The ester you reference by link above is a phthalate diester with a VI of 55 and is not used in motor oils.

Fact is we don't know what is used in the Redline oil, and a gas chromatogram is the only practical test method that can identify and quantify the PAO and ester used.

When someone can give me an estimate with better accuracy, I will take it. Until then, less than highly accurate estimates will suffice with me. There are those who unwilling to make the effort to estimate things based on input variables and/or assumptions that have an uncertainty around them, but in my opinion that is generally not a good way to be.

You said most commonly used esters in motor oils have sg of 0.95. I assumed 0.955. That is indeed very close. As you know, the VI of the ester in the provided link is irrelevant in this analysis. It having a sg that is typical is what matters and I chose it because it fit that bill and the link to it was near the top of my internet search results.

One can do this analysis many times, each time assuming different values for the input variables such that they fall within the range of expected values, and see how the predicted % of ester varies. I just don't have the time to do that for the time being.

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