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#4663355 - 02/11/18 08:41 PM Redline base oils
JAG Offline


Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 4925
Loc: Fredericksburg, VA
The MSDS, dated from 2017, indicates a large percentage of two types of PAO. Esters are not listed but usually are not in MSDS sheets. Redline oils are famous for containing a lot of esters, so have they significantly changed the base oils toward less esters and more PAO? One approximate indicator of esters is when the motor oilís specific gravity is around 0.88 or more, which Redline has according to the MSDS. Another indicator of esters is when the oxidation level is tested in a VOA and the value is high (ex. 100), due to the oxygen atoms. The values Iíve seen in years past for Redline were around 100. I havenít seen any recent results on that. Here is the MSDS: https://w3apps.phillips66.com/NetMSDS/ViewPDF.aspx?fileName=828863&Language=EN&IssueDate=9%2f19%2f2017&SubFormat=USDS

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#4663377 - 02/11/18 09:03 PM Re: Redline base oils [Re: JAG]
BobsArmory Offline


Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 1325
Loc: Michigan
Tagged
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#4663389 - 02/11/18 09:27 PM Re: Redline base oils [Re: JAG]
robertcope Offline


Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 1015
Loc: TX
I have a VOA and UOA from July 2017 where oxidation levels are high (98, 90). Polaris Labs performed the tests.

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#4663400 - 02/11/18 09:58 PM Re: Redline base oils [Re: robertcope]
JAG Offline


Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 4925
Loc: Fredericksburg, VA
Originally Posted By: robertcope
I have a VOA and UOA from July 2017 where oxidation levels are high (98, 90). Polaris Labs performed the tests.

Excellent, thanks! That settles the matter. After I made my post, I realized that long ago they didnít make 0W-X oils and it may be that they contain more PAO and less esters. The crazy low pour points point toward that. The MSDS covers all of their street motor oils and I wonder if the high percentage of PAO it lists is to cover the 0W-X oils.

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#4663464 - 02/12/18 12:05 AM Re: Redline base oils [Re: JAG]
robertcope Offline


Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 1015
Loc: TX
I use the 10W-30, FWIW.

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#4663621 - 02/12/18 08:51 AM Re: Redline base oils [Re: JAG]
OVERKILL Online   content


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 36746
Loc: Ontario, Canada
I'd wager it has been majority PAO the entire time. The product doesn't need a monumental dose of POE to benefit from it. I think being famous for ester content is being conflated with majority POE. I don't think it was ever stated by Redline that this was the case, it was assumed.
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#4665040 - 02/13/18 06:02 PM Re: Redline base oils [Re: OVERKILL]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 24992
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Yes, I think Overkill has it here.
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#4665336 - 02/13/18 10:23 PM Re: Redline base oils [Re: JAG]
JAG Offline


Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 4925
Loc: Fredericksburg, VA
Iíve made a rough estimate of the percentage of PAO and esters, subject to the following assumptions:
1. Additive package and carrier oil comprises 20% of the assumed Red Line motor oil, having a specific gravity (sg) of 0.888.
2. The PAO has sg of 0.8326, assumed based on this PAO: PAO link
3. The ester has sg of 0.955, assumed based on this ester: Ester link
4. If the base oil were only PAO and the rest of the motor oil were 20% additive package, the sg would be 0.85. This is a typical 30 weight, non-ester motor oil density.

Using the weighted average formula, first, I calculated the sg of additive package as 0.9196
Then, I calculated the percentage of ester, out of the entire motor oil, as 35%. Percentage of PAO was calculated as 45%.
Relative to just the base oil portion of the motor oil, ester comprises 44%, while PAO comprises 56%.

That is obviously a majority of PAO but it is pretty close to 50/50.
Iím not surprised, given all of the test data that Iíve seen on Red Line oils.

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#4665597 - 02/14/18 09:30 AM Re: Redline base oils [Re: JAG]
Tom NJ Offline


Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 2132
Loc: Virginia
Interesting effort, but too many assumptions and not enough accuracy. POEs that I know for a fact have been used in motor oils over the years range in density from 0.91 to 1.00, with the most commonly used being 0.95. The ester you reference by link above is a phthalate diester with a VI of 55 and is not used in motor oils.

Fact is we don't know what is used in the Redline oil, and a gas chromatogram is the only practical test method that can identify and quantify the PAO and ester used.

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#4665708 - 02/14/18 11:20 AM Re: Redline base oils [Re: JAG]
BrocLuno Offline


Registered: 09/06/15
Posts: 5691
Loc: Kalifornia Kollective
Yes, but even with some WAG numbers for sg, it seems that there is some significant percentage of POE. And that is what sets Redline apart from many others smile

Could do the same for Motul 300V and see how they compare ...
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#4665710 - 02/14/18 11:24 AM Re: Redline base oils [Re: OVERKILL]
deven Offline


Registered: 06/28/05
Posts: 3433
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I don't think it was ever stated by Redline that this was the case, it was assumed.

Dave at Redline has told me multiple times that the base oil is 100% polyolester. But this was nearly 5 years ago so things may have changed!


Edited by deven (02/14/18 11:29 AM)
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#4665720 - 02/14/18 11:29 AM Re: Redline base oils [Re: deven]
OVERKILL Online   content


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 36746
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: deven
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I don't think it was ever stated by Redline that this was the case, it was assumed.

Dave at Redline has told me multiple times that the base oil is 100% ester. But this was nearly 5 years ago so things may have changed!


Would like to see an MSDS from back then eh?

Would seem to me that a POE/PAO blend would likely result in a better product for automotive applications shrug
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#4665722 - 02/14/18 11:31 AM Re: Redline base oils [Re: OVERKILL]
deven Offline


Registered: 06/28/05
Posts: 3433
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: deven
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I don't think it was ever stated by Redline that this was the case, it was assumed.

Dave at Redline has told me multiple times that the base oil is 100% ester. But this was nearly 5 years ago so things may have changed!


Would like to see an MSDS from back then eh?

Would seem to me that a POE/PAO blend would likely result in a better product for automotive applications shrug

Agreed. I just never had the need to second guess Dave. He's always been a stand up kinda guy but looking back ya a MSDS would have been great.
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Proud user of ROYAL PURPLE products!

2016 Acura RLX Sports Hybrid(Royal Purple HPS 5w30 + M1-110 oil filter)

KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID. IT'S ONLY OIL

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#4665791 - 02/14/18 12:36 PM Re: Redline base oils [Re: JAG]
aquariuscsm Offline


Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 18439
Loc: Dallas,Tx USA
Years ago Redine's site advertised something to the effect of "Our ester based lubricants". There was no mention of pao whatsoever. Maybe after the buyout their chemistry changed,like Royal Purple's did when they got bought out.
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#4665820 - 02/14/18 01:10 PM Re: Redline base oils [Re: Tom NJ]
JAG Offline


Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 4925
Loc: Fredericksburg, VA
Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Interesting effort, but too many assumptions and not enough accuracy. POEs that I know for a fact have been used in motor oils over the years range in density from 0.91 to 1.00, with the most commonly used being 0.95. The ester you reference by link above is a phthalate diester with a VI of 55 and is not used in motor oils.

Fact is we don't know what is used in the Redline oil, and a gas chromatogram is the only practical test method that can identify and quantify the PAO and ester used.

When someone can give me an estimate with better accuracy, I will take it. Until then, less than highly accurate estimates will suffice with me. There are those who unwilling to make the effort to estimate things based on input variables and/or assumptions that have an uncertainty around them, but in my opinion that is generally not a good way to be.

You said most commonly used esters in motor oils have sg of 0.95. I assumed 0.955. That is indeed very close. As you know, the VI of the ester in the provided link is irrelevant in this analysis. It having a sg that is typical is what matters and I chose it because it fit that bill and the link to it was near the top of my internet search results.

One can do this analysis many times, each time assuming different values for the input variables such that they fall within the range of expected values, and see how the predicted % of ester varies. I just don't have the time to do that for the time being.

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