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Lithium-ion battery maintenance #4659932
02/08/18 12:02 PM
02/08/18 12:02 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,486
Washington State (East)
Blaze Offline OP
Blaze  Offline OP

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,486
Washington State (East)
I'm going to get a new lithium-ion to replace the original lead acid in my Yamahs WR. Do folks use a battery tender on these? If so what brands/types are recommended? thanks

Re: Lithium-ion battery maintenance [Re: Blaze] #4659955
02/08/18 12:33 PM
02/08/18 12:33 PM
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 12
Canada
JimmyD Offline
JimmyD  Offline

Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 12
Canada
You need a specific type of charger for Lithium batteries.

Optimate make a couple variants but AFAIK don't make a charger that works with both LiFe batteries and lead acid; Battery Tender makes one that is switchable between the two types.

Personally, I find Battery Tenders cheap in construction and prefer Optimate products, but they're typically more expensive to buy.

Optimate 0.8A Lithium Charger (Canadian pricing

Battery Tender switchable Charger

Last edited by JimmyD; 02/08/18 12:35 PM.

2014 Mazda 3 2.0L 6MT
Re: Lithium-ion battery maintenance [Re: Blaze] #4660053
02/08/18 03:30 PM
02/08/18 03:30 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,088
Jupiter, Florida
Cujet Offline
Cujet  Offline

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,088
Jupiter, Florida
The Ballistic batteries also have available a cell balancing charger that hooks to a dedicated connector. It allows the battery to be properly maintained over long periods of time.

It's convenient as it does not use the terminals for connection.



People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence.
Re: Lithium-ion battery maintenance [Re: Blaze] #4660161
02/08/18 05:57 PM
02/08/18 05:57 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,486
Lyndhurst NJ
Audios Offline
Audios  Offline

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,486
Lyndhurst NJ
Yes with LiPo or similar you need a good balance charger and usually have the balance leads like pictured. Sometimes they charge through that post alos, if its low amperage, but more amperage would require a typical positive negative connection as well.


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Re: Lithium-ion battery maintenance [Re: Blaze] #4660268
02/08/18 07:34 PM
02/08/18 07:34 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,928
Pittsburgh,PA U.S.A.
JimPghPA Offline
JimPghPA  Offline

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,928
Pittsburgh,PA U.S.A.
Lithium batteries that are abused such as being overcharged can explode with an almost unbelievable amount of energy (think plastic explosive or dynamite, seriously!). Fortunately most lithium batteries have builtin protection that prevents them from allowing the abuse that would cause them to explode. Often the protection circuit is a one time fail safe device that renders the battery unusable once it is tripped.

So, don't cheap out on the charger for a lithium battery. It is very important to get it right the first time.


Boy will I be happy when ALL vehicles on public roads are autonomous.


JimPghPa

Re: Lithium-ion battery maintenance [Re: Blaze] #4660290
02/08/18 07:54 PM
02/08/18 07:54 PM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,762
Idaho
SubLGT Offline
SubLGT  Offline

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,762
Idaho
Lead acid batteries have longest service life when kept at 100% state of charge. Lithium ion batteries are the opposite. They will have a shorter life if constantly kept near 100% SOC.

Re: Lithium-ion battery maintenance [Re: JimPghPA] #4660327
02/08/18 08:33 PM
02/08/18 08:33 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 387
Cincinnati, USA
Dave9 Offline
Dave9  Offline

Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 387
Cincinnati, USA
Originally Posted By: JimPghPA
Lithium batteries that are abused such as being overcharged can explode with an almost unbelievable amount of energy (think plastic explosive or dynamite, seriously!). Fortunately most lithium batteries have builtin protection that prevents them from allowing the abuse that would cause them to explode. Often the protection circuit is a one time fail safe device that renders the battery unusable once it is tripped.

So, don't cheap out on the charger for a lithium battery. It is very important to get it right the first time.


No, they don't explode with much force at all except very rare cases with specific circumstances such as an external source of fire causing very rapid heating, not from the battery itself failing. They have vents which prevent pressure buildup to far below the level of a plastic explosive or dynamite, it's not even in the same ballpark.

Certain lithium chemistries will turn into a fire ball, but explosion is very rare outside of sensationalists using the word "explode" inappropriately. Granted, you don't want a fireball either, but it's decidedly less deadly than riding around with dynamite under your seat.

Re: Lithium-ion battery maintenance [Re: Blaze] #4660337
02/08/18 08:42 PM
02/08/18 08:42 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,486
Washington State (East)
Blaze Offline OP
Blaze  Offline OP

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,486
Washington State (East)
thanks for the reply's learned a few things I didn't know. i like that Ballistic battery!

Re: Lithium-ion battery maintenance [Re: Dave9] #4660408
02/08/18 09:58 PM
02/08/18 09:58 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,637
New Jersey
JHZR2 Offline
Global Moderator
JHZR2  Offline
Global Moderator

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,637
New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Dave9
Originally Posted By: JimPghPA
Lithium batteries that are abused such as being overcharged can explode with an almost unbelievable amount of energy (think plastic explosive or dynamite, seriously!). Fortunately most lithium batteries have builtin protection that prevents them from allowing the abuse that would cause them to explode. Often the protection circuit is a one time fail safe device that renders the battery unusable once it is tripped.

So, don't cheap out on the charger for a lithium battery. It is very important to get it right the first time.


No, they don't explode with much force at all except very rare cases with specific circumstances such as an external source of fire causing very rapid heating, not from the battery itself failing. They have vents which prevent pressure buildup to far below the level of a plastic explosive or dynamite, it's not even in the same ballpark.

Certain lithium chemistries will turn into a fire ball, but explosion is very rare outside of sensationalists using the word "explode" inappropriately. Granted, you don't want a fireball either, but it's decidedly less deadly than riding around with dynamite under your seat.


It is rather common to see the vents release at inconsistent pressures, or for crimped cells to eject their entire contents. Cells venting without fire can create explosive mixtures.

It's dependent on the type of abuse they encounter.

Re: Lithium-ion battery maintenance [Re: Blaze] #4660488
02/08/18 11:44 PM
02/08/18 11:44 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,207
US-WA
Dyusik Offline
Dyusik  Offline

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,207
US-WA
I hook up a tender every 4 months or so, shows 100% within minutes. Lifepos have a super slow self discharge rate, they can safely sit for months and be just fine. I use a Duracell 0.8 amp, cheapie fro batteries + on my Shorai.

Last edited by Dyusik; 02/08/18 11:44 PM.

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Re: Lithium-ion battery maintenance [Re: Blaze] #4660490
02/08/18 11:45 PM
02/08/18 11:45 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,169
Saskatchewan, Canada
Johnny2Bad Offline
Johnny2Bad  Offline

Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,169
Saskatchewan, Canada
It's rare, but Lithium chemistry batteries can be far more dangerous than lead-acid. As we speak Hewlett-Packard (4 January), Lenovo (6 February) and today (8 February) Fujitsu are recalling laptops with defective, potentially dangerous batteries.

At least two aircraft have burned to the ground, and there have been fatalities, due to lithium batteries in cargo (both were cargo aircraft, the most famous one being a FedEx plane landing in Tokyo).

There is a circuit inside Lithium chemistry batteries that monitors the resident charge level (volts). When that charge falls below a specific point, the battery can become unstable and potentially dangerous. Lithium burns at very high temperatures (4,000F and higher) so it quickly starts large fire emergencies. The circuit is supposed to kill the battery (make it un-usable) if the voltage falls below the trip point.

Two issues worth noting.

One, cheap Asian batteries often ship with substandard or completely missing safety circuitry. That is the reason for virtually all battery recalls (although it's typically not the result of cheap sourcing but instead errors in manufacturing at a reliable plant). That is also why you can buy a replacement battery for your phone or computer for one third the cost of OEM. Every single instance of "exploding [name your phone] so far is due to third party replacement batteries.

You might be buying a fire hazard to save a few bucks. There are reputable third-party battery suppliers, I strongly suggest everyone take advantage of them and refrain from choosing the very cheapest options from dubious sources (which, unfortunately, now includes Amazon).

Two, the electronics inside the battery have *nothing to do with charging*. All the safety with charging Lithium batteries is in the charger. Don't scrimp there either.



'57 FL Straight 50 wt
'90 Miata 1.8L w/Rotrex Supercharger [Mobil1 0W-40]
'96 Ram 1500 [3.7L Mobil1 0W-20 / 1L 15W-50]
'01 PT Cruiser [Mobil1 0W-40]
Re: Lithium-ion battery maintenance [Re: JimmyD] #4660522
02/09/18 01:09 AM
02/09/18 01:09 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 4,658
SF Bay Area
y_p_w Online content
y_p_w  Online Content

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 4,658
SF Bay Area
Originally Posted By: JimmyD
You need a specific type of charger for Lithium batteries.

Very, very specific. There were a lot of things learned early with lithium rechargeable battery technology, like overcharging causes fires (like the Sony fire in 1995), so don't actually get to that point. Or deep discharge and it will never come out of it. Most lithium rechargeable batteries are designed around stopping well shy of the maximum theoretical charge, which boosts longevity and safety.

You can grab almost any reasonable universal "smart charger", place it on a suitable lead-acid battery of any reasonable size, and it should be safe to charge it. Lithium rechargeable batteries should have some sort of smart battery system on a circuit within the battery housing, that talks to the battery management of the charging circuits. There is no such thing as a safe universal lithium battery charger. Chargers are typically built into the devices and almost always do better with OEM batteries. They need to build up a proper estimate of the capacity to help with charging, rather than doing some sort of universal charging algorithm.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_Battery_System

At best, a lousy lithium rechargeable battery might work poorly because it fudges the specs to kind of work. I've been spending time on a computer message board where one guy is asking why his $27 aftermarket battery (OEM is over $100) is resulting in unplanned shutdowns when the computer thinks it's at 70% charge. We all know what happens when lithium batteries aren't properly charged with precision devices. Hoverboards catch on fire and e-cigs blow up in peoples' faces.

Re: Lithium-ion battery maintenance [Re: Johnny2Bad] #4660523
02/09/18 01:25 AM
02/09/18 01:25 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 4,658
SF Bay Area
y_p_w Online content
y_p_w  Online Content

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 4,658
SF Bay Area
Originally Posted By: Johnny2Bad
There is a circuit inside Lithium chemistry batteries that monitors the resident charge level (volts). When that charge falls below a specific point, the battery can become unstable and potentially dangerous. Lithium burns at very high temperatures (4,000F and higher) so it quickly starts large fire emergencies. The circuit is supposed to kill the battery (make it un-usable) if the voltage falls below the trip point.

Two issues worth noting.

One, cheap Asian batteries often ship with substandard or completely missing safety circuitry. That is the reason for virtually all battery recalls (although it's typically not the result of cheap sourcing but instead errors in manufacturing at a reliable plant). That is also why you can buy a replacement battery for your phone or computer for one third the cost of OEM. Every single instance of "exploding [name your phone] so far is due to third party replacement batteries.

You might be buying a fire hazard to save a few bucks. There are reputable third-party battery suppliers, I strongly suggest everyone take advantage of them and refrain from choosing the very cheapest options from dubious sources (which, unfortunately, now includes Amazon).

Two, the electronics inside the battery have *nothing to do with charging*. All the safety with charging Lithium batteries is in the charger. Don't scrimp there either.


A well-designed lithium rechargeable battery should at least store basic statitics useful for properly estimating the state of charge and the remaining capacity. You don't really see that level of detail with any other kind of battery chemistry. And sometimes it can go nuts. I had a laptop battery suffer from an unplanned shutdown on battery power. I think it just sort of shut down to prevent thermal damage. When I started the computer up again, I could check the battery diagnostics and it was reporting negative maximum battery capacity. It was weird too because I kept on using it until it was reporting it was normal again, then reporting negative, then it started swelling. Something like this:



Samsung had serious issues with batteries that were made by a reliable supplier, as well as their own battery division. However, wasn't that due to bad thermal design and not the quality of the battery?

Re: Lithium-ion battery maintenance [Re: Blaze] #4660537
02/09/18 02:02 AM
02/09/18 02:02 AM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 1
CA
shoutscout Offline
shoutscout  Offline

Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 1
CA
[b][/b]www.batterystuff.com

ask these guys about chargers...free shipping and no tax from oregan....hit em up I have been

very pleased with their customer service and knowledge of product...

Re: Lithium-ion battery maintenance [Re: Blaze] #4660614
02/09/18 08:05 AM
02/09/18 08:05 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,818
South Carolina
alarmguy Offline
alarmguy  Offline

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,818
South Carolina
You never want to use a battery maintainer on a lithium battery, not needed and will shorten its life.


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