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#4658826 - 02/07/18 08:36 AM Harley Davidson Recalls 175,000 Bikes- Brake Issue
Analyzer Offline


Registered: 09/11/13
Posts: 238
Loc: 805, Ca
Deposits can form on brake components from aging brake fluid leading to sticking components.

CBS News
_________________________
2007 Yamaha FZ1
1986 Yamaha FZX700 Fazer
1997 Suzuki RM250
2016 Mazda 3 Sport
1992 Ford Explorer Eddie Bauer 4x4

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#4658852 - 02/07/18 08:59 AM Re: Harley Davidson Recalls 175,000 Bikes- Brake Issue [Re: Analyzer]
FowVay Offline


Registered: 06/02/02
Posts: 2685
Loc: Southeastern USA
Aging brake fluid? That sounds like a seal compatibility issue moreso than a FMVHS regulated fluid issue.
* after reading the recall they're saying that the system can fail if the fluid isn't replaced every two years. I agree that brake fluid should be replaced and European cars specify 2 year intervals which I adhere to on nearly everything I own but I wouldn't expect corrosion in the system to cause failure if I went 3-4 years between flushes.

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#4658877 - 02/07/18 09:30 AM Re: Harley Davidson Recalls 175,000 Bikes- Brake Issue [Re: Analyzer]
LoneRanger Offline


Registered: 07/02/07
Posts: 4095
Loc: Midwest USA
The inevitable Harley bashers arriving in thread in 5...4...3...2...1...
_________________________

'09 Subaru Forester ...................(QSED DEXOS1 5W30)
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#4658925 - 02/07/18 10:22 AM Re: Harley Davidson Recalls 175,000 Bikes- Brake Issue [Re: LoneRanger]
pandus13 Offline


Registered: 08/12/11
Posts: 3280
Loc: Chicago,IL,USA
Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
The inevitable Harley bashers arriving in thread in 5...4...3...2...1...

Me First:
-My head hurts in the summer from all the broom broom broom from the neighborhood Harley dealer
-Cannot even enjoy an open air window without ears hurt and nose smelling dumped gas....

P.S. How many Americans does Harley and Harley dealer employ?
The local dealer is also a regular host of a rock and a country local radio stations, which is why a give them a pass...
_________________________
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#4658944 - 02/07/18 10:46 AM Re: Harley Davidson Recalls 175,000 Bikes- Brake Issue [Re: Analyzer]
dwendt44 Online   content


Registered: 05/17/06
Posts: 3982
Loc: Central Wisconsin
And how often do auto owners change brake fluid?

I'll guess that it rarely happens.
Two year changes seem anal to many, two year changes
REQUIRED indicates a problem.


My 2
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#4658998 - 02/07/18 12:02 PM Re: Harley Davidson Recalls 175,000 Bikes- Brake Issue [Re: Analyzer]
gman2304 Offline


Registered: 08/11/11
Posts: 3086
Loc: n.c.
My 2009 Dyna owners manual says to flush and refill with fresh DOT4 brake fluid every 2 years. I think the recall is for ABS models. I flushed mine in 2016 when I replaced a brake light switch. I'll probably flush again this summer. I don't have a problem with being anal about brakes on a motorcycle. wink

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#4659010 - 02/07/18 12:23 PM Re: Harley Davidson Recalls 175,000 Bikes- Brake Issue [Re: dwendt44]
02SE Offline


Registered: 12/30/05
Posts: 2763
Loc: The Canyons
Originally Posted By: dwendt44
And how often do auto owners change brake fluid?

I'll guess that it rarely happens.
Two year changes seem anal to many, two year changes
REQUIRED indicates a problem.


My 2


The problem is maintenance neglect. And you're right, brake fluid is an often neglected maintenance item. Cars will eventually develop brake system problems too, if their brake system is neglected. When I ride one of my Sportbikes on the track, I change the brake fluid before every outing. For less demanding street riding that the average Harley is likely to see, every two years is okay.

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#4659182 - 02/07/18 02:53 PM Re: Harley Davidson Recalls 175,000 Bikes- Brake Issue [Re: Analyzer]
alarmguy Offline


Registered: 07/10/12
Posts: 2170
Loc: South Carolina
Most motorcycles of All Brands require brake fluid changes every two years.
The same requirement was for my V Star 1300 tourer and my Suzuki C50.
_________________________
14 Road King (current)
08 VStar 1300 Tourer
07 Suzuki C50

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#4659206 - 02/07/18 03:26 PM Re: Harley Davidson Recalls 175,000 Bikes- Brake Issue [Re: Analyzer]
BigCahuna Offline


Registered: 09/29/09
Posts: 2151
Loc: Deep in the heart of Jersey
Brake fluid and fork fluid are the two most neglected maint items on most bikes.,,,

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#4659539 - 02/07/18 09:08 PM Re: Harley Davidson Recalls 175,000 Bikes- Brake Issue [Re: Analyzer]
Analyzer Offline


Registered: 09/11/13
Posts: 238
Loc: 805, Ca
While I do agree that the brake/fork fluid are some of the most neglected fluids on a motorcycle; having deposits form if in use for more than two years that potentially cause brake failure is a serious problem. I would argue that most motorcycles on the road today have brake fluid that's been in use for longer than two years with no serious ill effects (besides moisture saturation and reduced boiling point). It makes me wonder if there is something else going on with the brake fluid or components/materials in the braking system that are susceptible to deposits and causing the issue.

For instance, I checked the owners manual for a 2011 Yamaha Vstar 1300 Tourer and they state to check: operation, fluid level, fluid leakage, and to change the brake pads if necessary in their schedule for periodic maintenance (along with other models including their FZ1, and YZF-R1), not a specific bi-annual brake fluid flush (although this varies between manufacturers). 2011 Yamaha Vstar 1300 Tourer Owners Manual


For instance I have a 2007 Yamaha FZ1 that I ride on the street, and also ride at the track once a month/every other month for the track organization that I work for. I am a stickler for maintenance and meticulously take care of my bikes, but my brake fluid is the original that the bike came with in 2007! I know, I've been ready to bleed the brakes many times, but my braking performance has been fantastic on the street and on the track hence me continuing to postpone bleeding my brakes (due to age), with no braking failures or noticeable decreased braking performance. I know my exception doesn't make it the rule, but I've never heard of braking issues due to 2+ year old brake fluid that can lead to a potential failure.


Edited by Analyzer (02/07/18 09:16 PM)
_________________________
2007 Yamaha FZ1
1986 Yamaha FZX700 Fazer
1997 Suzuki RM250
2016 Mazda 3 Sport
1992 Ford Explorer Eddie Bauer 4x4

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#4659694 - 02/08/18 05:56 AM Re: Harley Davidson Recalls 175,000 Bikes- Brake Issue [Re: Analyzer]
DuckRyder Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 4253
Loc: Atlanta
Part of the issue is probably that you need a dealer level scan tool to cycle the ABS pump during a fluid exchange.
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#4659711 - 02/08/18 06:19 AM Re: Harley Davidson Recalls 175,000 Bikes- Brake Issue [Re: Analyzer]
alarmguy Offline


Registered: 07/10/12
Posts: 2170
Loc: South Carolina
Originally Posted By: Analyzer
While I do agree that the brake/fork fluid are some of the most neglected fluids on a motorcycle; having deposits form if in use for more than two years that potentially cause brake failure is a serious problem. I would argue that most motorcycles on the road today have brake fluid that's been in use for longer than two years with no serious ill effects (besides moisture saturation and reduced boiling point). ... I know my exception doesn't make it the rule, but I've never heard of braking issues due to 2+ year old brake fluid that can lead to a potential failure.


Your correct, your exception doesnt make it rule.
I had the rear brake on my 2008 Yamaha Vstar 1300 Tourer fail in the Smoky Mountains, coming down a mountain, with my wife on the back no less and can fully "testify" all I am typing here.

THE REASON FOR THIS REAR BRAKE FAILURE WAS MOISTURE IN THE BRAKE FLUID BOILED UNDER HEAVY USE, CREATED VAPOR LOCK WHICH COMPLETELY DISABLED THE REAR CALIPER, BRAKE PETAL JUST WENT ALL THE WAY DOWN LIKE IT WASNT EVEN CONNECTED TO ANYTHING.

WE WERE ON A STEEP DECLINE COMING DOWN FROM THE TOP OF A MOUNTAIN, NO PLACE TO PULL OFF, OF COURSE PLENTY OF CURVES, TRYING TO USE ENGINE BRAKING AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE AND HOPING TO GOD THE FRONT BRAKE WASNT GOING TO GO OUT ETHER.

That 10 minutes or so (maybe more, maybe less) were some of the longest 10 minutes in my life, first most concerned for my wife on the back and how her life was depending on my performance, just kept reminding my self to keep calm, keep calm. We got to the bottom of the mountain, what a relief, thought to myself at least I can get to someplace with the front brake, if again, it didnt stop working, yet, about 10 or 15 minutes later, the rear brake started working, once the brake fluid cooled down.

It continued to work the rest of the trip, I was advised by forum 1300 members right after I got back to our motel it was vapor lock and avoid extremes until I can get home to change the fluid, which I did and never an issue again.

Because of Yamaha willful disregard to properly post required brake fluid changes in the maintenance section of the manual where all the required items are posted, we very well could have lost our lives. After this experience I checked again, as others who had told me, sure enough, it is posted in the maintenance section but not on the maintenance chart, its posted in the "notes" section under the chart.

Im telling you, it was freaking scary and wondered to myself how in the [censored] can a manufacturer bury this requirement in the notes section?

Anyway, point of my story is not to defend Harley, it is to tell a real story about a non Harley bike because Harley (the American brand) gets bashed by Americans, yet the other manufacturers get off the hook, part of the reason is the other Manufactures have not even close to the same number of bikes on the road so you dont hear about issues like you do with HD.

I was shocked and so [censored] at Yamaha, loved the bike.

Anyway, change your freaking brake fluid like the manual says, even if you dont ride mountains, two up, luggage ect. it will help your system last longer by taking the moisture out of it with brake fluid changes and for gods sake, stop comparing the brake systems of automobiles and trucks with motorcycles, my god. (not directed at the person I am replying to by any means)

I just tell this story over and over, hoping if I prevent someone or their spouse from getting killed, disabled or injured I have done good for myself.


Edited by alarmguy (02/08/18 06:34 AM)
_________________________
14 Road King (current)
08 VStar 1300 Tourer
07 Suzuki C50

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#4659722 - 02/08/18 06:39 AM Re: Harley Davidson Recalls 175,000 Bikes- Brake Issue [Re: Analyzer]
alarmguy Offline


Registered: 07/10/12
Posts: 2170
Loc: South Carolina
So Harley is going to recall the bikes because as expected, people do not follow the manual and they have to further idiot proof the bike. In Yamaha case with my past bike, there is no pressure because there are not even 10s of thousands on the road to attract the attention that 100,000 plus Harley bikes do. Its that simple.
_________________________
14 Road King (current)
08 VStar 1300 Tourer
07 Suzuki C50

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#4659723 - 02/08/18 06:43 AM Re: Harley Davidson Recalls 175,000 Bikes- Brake Issue [Re: Analyzer]
alarmguy Offline


Registered: 07/10/12
Posts: 2170
Loc: South Carolina
Originally Posted By: Analyzer
...

For instance, I checked the owners manual for a 2011 Yamaha Vstar 1300 Tourer and they state to check: operation, fluid level, fluid leakage, and to change the brake pads if necessary in their schedule for periodic maintenance (along with other models including their FZ1, and YZF-R1), not a specific bi-annual brake fluid flush (although this varies between manufacturers). 2011 Yamaha Vstar 1300 Tourer Owners Manual




You are incorrect, check under the "NOTES" section of the maintenance schedule, yes, exactly, that is how I missed it.
Its under "Notes", you are also supposed to rebuild the calipers and master cylinders too! EVERY TWO YEARS on the Yamaha 1300 Tourer!
Yet the Harley bashers never stop and they will make an excuse for Yamaha though. (not directed at you)

Click here and go to page 48 in the Yama...er displays PDF

TO ANYONE INTERESTED PLEASE READ THE LAST FEW POSTS, IMPORTANT IF YOU OWN ANY MOTORCYCLE.


Edited by alarmguy (02/08/18 06:51 AM)
_________________________
14 Road King (current)
08 VStar 1300 Tourer
07 Suzuki C50

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#4659770 - 02/08/18 08:04 AM Re: Harley Davidson Recalls 175,000 Bikes- Brake Issue [Re: alarmguy]
Analyzer Offline


Registered: 09/11/13
Posts: 238
Loc: 805, Ca
Originally Posted By: alarmguy
Originally Posted By: Analyzer
While I do agree that the brake/fork fluid are some of the most neglected fluids on a motorcycle; having deposits form if in use for more than two years that potentially cause brake failure is a serious problem. I would argue that most motorcycles on the road today have brake fluid that's been in use for longer than two years with no serious ill effects (besides moisture saturation and reduced boiling point). ... I know my exception doesn't make it the rule, but I've never heard of braking issues due to 2+ year old brake fluid that can lead to a potential failure.


Your correct, your exception doesnt make it rule.
I had the rear brake on my 2008 Yamaha Vstar 1300 Tourer fail in the Smoky Mountains, coming down a mountain, with my wife on the back no less and can fully "testify" all I am typing here.

THE REASON FOR THIS REAR BRAKE FAILURE WAS MOISTURE IN THE BRAKE FLUID BOILED UNDER HEAVY USE, CREATED VAPOR LOCK WHICH COMPLETELY DISABLED THE REAR CALIPER, BRAKE PETAL JUST WENT ALL THE WAY DOWN LIKE IT WASNT EVEN CONNECTED TO ANYTHING.

WE WERE ON A STEEP DECLINE COMING DOWN FROM THE TOP OF A MOUNTAIN, NO PLACE TO PULL OFF, OF COURSE PLENTY OF CURVES, TRYING TO USE ENGINE BRAKING AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE AND HOPING TO GOD THE FRONT BRAKE WASNT GOING TO GO OUT ETHER.

That 10 minutes or so (maybe more, maybe less) were some of the longest 10 minutes in my life, first most concerned for my wife on the back and how her life was depending on my performance, just kept reminding my self to keep calm, keep calm. We got to the bottom of the mountain, what a relief, thought to myself at least I can get to someplace with the front brake, if again, it didnt stop working, yet, about 10 or 15 minutes later, the rear brake started working, once the brake fluid cooled down.

It continued to work the rest of the trip, I was advised by forum 1300 members right after I got back to our motel it was vapor lock and avoid extremes until I can get home to change the fluid, which I did and never an issue again.

Because of Yamaha willful disregard to properly post required brake fluid changes in the maintenance section of the manual where all the required items are posted, we very well could have lost our lives. After this experience I checked again, as others who had told me, sure enough, it is posted in the maintenance section but not on the maintenance chart, its posted in the "notes" section under the chart.

Im telling you, it was freaking scary and wondered to myself how in the [censored] can a manufacturer bury this requirement in the notes section?

Anyway, point of my story is not to defend Harley, it is to tell a real story about a non Harley bike because Harley (the American brand) gets bashed by Americans, yet the other manufacturers get off the hook, part of the reason is the other Manufactures have not even close to the same number of bikes on the road so you dont hear about issues like you do with HD.

I was shocked and so [censored] at Yamaha, loved the bike.

Anyway, change your freaking brake fluid like the manual says, even if you dont ride mountains, two up, luggage ect. it will help your system last longer by taking the moisture out of it with brake fluid changes and for gods sake, stop comparing the brake systems of automobiles and trucks with motorcycles, my god. (not directed at the person I am replying to by any means)

I just tell this story over and over, hoping if I prevent someone or their spouse from getting killed, disabled or injured I have done good for myself.


Yikes! That's definitely a nerve racking scenario and Im glad you and your wife came out safe after the ride! You are correct about the asterisk next to the service schedule, Yamaha definitely should have included that in the actual service schedule instead of in the notes section after the fact ( I'm sorry I missed that). Although I'm sure the reasoning for the brake fluid replacement/caliper rebuild every two years is driven by lawyers to cover their butt in every possible scenario (I've also seen many manufacturers recommend all brake lines to be replaced within a handful of years regardless of their actual condition as well!).

None the less, I will be changing out my decade old brake fluid prior to my next track day and would recommend everyone check when they last serviced their brake system and make sure it hasn't been overlooked for too long!
_________________________
2007 Yamaha FZ1
1986 Yamaha FZX700 Fazer
1997 Suzuki RM250
2016 Mazda 3 Sport
1992 Ford Explorer Eddie Bauer 4x4

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