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ZDDP in used cars #4654881
02/03/18 01:11 PM
02/03/18 01:11 PM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 101
Michigan
Building3 Offline OP
Building3  Offline OP
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 101
Michigan
I understand that a newly rebuilt engine needs added zinc on a rebuild. But how about cars from the high zinc era that are still on the road? Just used cars, or classic/muscle era cars that have never been rebuilt or rebuilt many years ago? Would they still need the added zinc? It seems to me as one poster said a while back, if low zinc levels were such an issue with SM and SN oils then wouldn't the TV Trail Lawyers be all over this? Call 1-800-LowZinc. Any thoughts?

Re: ZDDP in used cars [Re: Building3] #4654894
02/03/18 01:22 PM
02/03/18 01:22 PM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,198
Campbellsville, KY
Alex_V Offline
Alex_V  Offline
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,198
Campbellsville, KY
Unless it has a particularly aggressive cam (pretty small percentage of the flat-tappet cams out there) my observations/experience says it's not a big deal.


To quote a friend, "Synthetics, man."

'85 GMC C3500, 454, 132K
'82 Mercedes 300CD, OM617 turbo, 173K (totaled 2018, in rehab)
'85 Mercedes 300TD, OM617 turbo, 217K (wife's)
'67 Suburban, 350, 331K
Re: ZDDP in used cars [Re: Building3] #4654895
02/03/18 01:23 PM
02/03/18 01:23 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,362
Slovenia EU
Kamele0N Offline
Kamele0N  Offline
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,362
Slovenia EU
Just use HDEO oils...&non emission ones...

They still have plenty of "old" juice


2008 Toyota Yaris 1ND-TV 1.4 D4-D Elf FullTech FE 5w30
1997 Toyota Landcruiser KZJ95 3.0 TD Shell Rimula R6M 10w40
Re: ZDDP in used cars [Re: Building3] #4654909
02/03/18 01:31 PM
02/03/18 01:31 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5,691
Fort Lauderdale, FL
DoubleWasp Offline
DoubleWasp  Offline
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5,691
Fort Lauderdale, FL
Most of them out there (post 73) had such wussy broomstick camshafts, that other than break in, it is hardly a necessity.

I still prefer to err on the side of caution and run a good HDEO at a minimum.


07 Lincoln Navigator M1 0w-40/FU
68 Charger R/T / Supercharged 440 VR1/DBL7349
07 Ram 3500 4x4 / Cummins 6.7 /DBL7349
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Re: ZDDP in used cars [Re: Building3] #4654917
02/03/18 01:41 PM
02/03/18 01:41 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 17,842
Deplorable in apple valley, ca
Chris142 Offline
Chris142  Offline
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 17,842
Deplorable in apple valley, ca
Gm had huge camshaft failures in the late 60's and into the late 70's. But it was bad parts,not oil related.

Some engines had more problems than others. The low perf 350 Chevy for example ate cams. But the hipo ones didn't. Different cam suppliers.

Any hipo engine around today would definatly need zddp. The old 375hp/396, 340 Mopar etc.

Last edited by Chris142; 02/03/18 01:42 PM.

02 Wrangler carlube 5w30
87 F250 traveler 15w40
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Re: ZDDP in used cars [Re: Building3] #4654923
02/03/18 01:46 PM
02/03/18 01:46 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,462
Michigan
MrHorspwer Offline
MrHorspwer  Offline
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,462
Michigan
ZDDP (and its components) is an extreme pressure additive. The only place in an engine that requires such an additive is the interface between a camshaft lobe and a flat tappet lifter or non-roller cam follower.

If you engine has roller lifters or roller cam followers, you don't need any such additive. Not during break-in, not during normal operation. You just don't need it.

Looking back to vehicles that were from the "high zinc" timeframe:

First, most of them are dead, gone, and forgotten. It doesn't matter what oil they use when they're in the junkyard.

Second, automakers have been using roller lifters and roller followers since the mid-80s. Zinc additives haven't been an issue for most cars for a long time. The notable exception is the Jeep 4.0L that went well into the 2000s using flat tappet lifters.

Third, most engines don't *need* much extreme pressure additive and modern oils still have some. In most cases, they still have enough to keep engines from wiping cam lobes. See the Jeep example above. There are millions of Jeep TJ, ZJ, and XJ driving around with a flat tappet 4.0L and SM oil that aren't lunching cams and lifters.

The notable exception to all this are performance cars. An aggressive camshaft and high valve spring pressure is when the ZDDP is needed. From that point, if you have a muscle car from that era, it's one of those things that you just know. Like non-hardened valve seat wear after lead was taken out of gas, you just learn what additive is needed to keep the car happy.

Re: ZDDP in used cars [Re: Chris142] #4654947
02/03/18 02:15 PM
02/03/18 02:15 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 21,207
Oakville, Ontario
Patman Offline
Patman  Offline
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 21,207
Oakville, Ontario
Originally Posted By: Chris142
Gm had huge camshaft failures in the late 60's and into the late 70's. But it was bad parts,not oil related.



They also had problems in the 80s with the cam in the 305 engine too. Even though it was a design flaw, I wonder if perhaps the lesser quality conventional oils used at the time helped to speed up the problem? So if someone had that same engine today but ran a modern synthetic in it, would it still have cam problems?


2018 Corvette, 9k, M1 ESP Formula 5w30 & NAPA Gold
2006 Civic EX Coupe, 148k, PUP 5w20 & Fram Ultra
2010 BMW 328i X-Drive,111k, GC 0w40 & Fram Ultra

Re: ZDDP in used cars [Re: Kamele0N] #4654972
02/03/18 02:43 PM
02/03/18 02:43 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 21,942
Orlando, FL
Mr Nice Offline
Mr Nice  Offline
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 21,942
Orlando, FL
Originally Posted By: Kamele0N
Just use HDEO oils...&non emission ones...

They still have plenty of "old" juice

Yep, and for a rebuilt engine I'd take it easy for the first 3000 miles.

Re: ZDDP in used cars [Re: MrHorspwer] #4655046
02/03/18 04:12 PM
02/03/18 04:12 PM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,198
Campbellsville, KY
Alex_V Offline
Alex_V  Offline
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,198
Campbellsville, KY
Originally Posted By: MrHorspwer
ZDDP (and its components) is an extreme pressure additive. The only place in an engine that requires such an additive is the interface between a camshaft lobe and a flat tappet lifter or non-roller cam follower.

If you engine has roller lifters or roller cam followers, you don't need any such additive. Not during break-in, not during normal operation. You just don't need it.

Looking back to vehicles that were from the "high zinc" timeframe:

First, most of them are dead, gone, and forgotten. It doesn't matter what oil they use when they're in the junkyard.

Second, automakers have been using roller lifters and roller followers since the mid-80s. Zinc additives haven't been an issue for most cars for a long time. The notable exception is the Jeep 4.0L that went well into the 2000s using flat tappet lifters.

Third, most engines don't *need* much extreme pressure additive and modern oils still have some. In most cases, they still have enough to keep engines from wiping cam lobes. See the Jeep example above. There are millions of Jeep TJ, ZJ, and XJ driving around with a flat tappet 4.0L and SM oil that aren't lunching cams and lifters.

The notable exception to all this are performance cars. An aggressive camshaft and high valve spring pressure is when the ZDDP is needed. From that point, if you have a muscle car from that era, it's one of those things that you just know. Like non-hardened valve seat wear after lead was taken out of gas, you just learn what additive is needed to keep the car happy.


Let's see, flat-tappet engines used at least 5 years past "the mid 80's" - at least 1994, to be exact:
Jeep 4.0
Jeep 2.5
Chevy small block Gen 1
Chevy Big Block gen IV
Ford 300-6
Ford 460

I'm sure there are at least a couple more, but none of those were particularly rare engines.



Last edited by Alex_V; 02/03/18 04:12 PM.

To quote a friend, "Synthetics, man."

'85 GMC C3500, 454, 132K
'82 Mercedes 300CD, OM617 turbo, 173K (totaled 2018, in rehab)
'85 Mercedes 300TD, OM617 turbo, 217K (wife's)
'67 Suburban, 350, 331K
Re: ZDDP in used cars [Re: Building3] #4655207
02/03/18 07:29 PM
02/03/18 07:29 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 17,842
Deplorable in apple valley, ca
Chris142 Offline
Chris142  Offline
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 17,842
Deplorable in apple valley, ca
I know gm had flat tappits into 1997 in the 350. I have never seen one of those eat a cam.

Last edited by Chris142; 02/03/18 07:29 PM.

02 Wrangler carlube 5w30
87 F250 traveler 15w40
07 fjcruiser Chevron 10w30
Z400 castrol T 10w40
Can am maveric edge 5w40
57 case tractor 15w40
Re: ZDDP in used cars [Re: Patman] #4655209
02/03/18 07:30 PM
02/03/18 07:30 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 17,842
Deplorable in apple valley, ca
Chris142 Offline
Chris142  Offline
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 17,842
Deplorable in apple valley, ca
Originally Posted By: Patman
Originally Posted By: Chris142
Gm had huge camshaft failures in the late 60's and into the late 70's. But it was bad parts,not oil related.



They also had problems in the 80s with the cam in the 305 engine too. Even though it was a design flaw, I wonder if perhaps the lesser quality conventional oils used at the time helped to speed up the problem? So if someone had that same engine today but ran a modern synthetic in it, would it still have cam problems?
no oil will prevent wear if the part isn't made correctly.


02 Wrangler carlube 5w30
87 F250 traveler 15w40
07 fjcruiser Chevron 10w30
Z400 castrol T 10w40
Can am maveric edge 5w40
57 case tractor 15w40
Re: ZDDP in used cars [Re: Mr Nice] #4655426
02/03/18 11:53 PM
02/03/18 11:53 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 6,090
Kalifornia Kollective
BrocLuno Offline
BrocLuno  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 6,090
Kalifornia Kollective
Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Originally Posted By: Kamele0N
Just use HDEO oils...&non emission ones...

They still have plenty of "old" juice

Yep, and for a rebuilt engine I'd take it easy for the first 3000 miles.


I wouldn't. All USA V8 engines used sling oil off the crank to lube the cam lobes. You need at least 2,000 RPM to make sure you have enough sling oil. Spin that motor to oil it. You can back off after it's well broken in laugh


Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.
Re: ZDDP in used cars [Re: Building3] #4655592
02/04/18 08:24 AM
02/04/18 08:24 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 325
Rockies
Scdevon Offline
Scdevon  Offline
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 325
Rockies
Aren't there lots of other areas in any engine that see high psi loads besides flat tappets? What about pushrods against rocker arms? (Way less contact area and very high PSI). What about a rocker arm against a valve stem? What about a wrist pin bushing? What about a rocker arm fulcrum? Don't these areas need ZDDP too? Seems like if low ZDDP was an issue, there would be lots of other engine parts failing and not just flat tappet cams.

Toyota to this day still makes bucket and shim OHC engines, don't they? Buckets and shims are still "flat tappets" when it comes to cam lobe loading. There isn't a more trouble free setup than an OHC Toyota with buckets / shims. They seem to do just fine on the cheapest store brand oil people can find.


2003 Mustang Mach 1. 32V 4.6 Liter. Motorcraft Syn Blend 5W30
1970 Mustang Convertible 302-2V Auto (Stock) M/C 10W30
1970 VW Beetle 1600 DP
Re: ZDDP in used cars [Re: Scdevon] #4655763
02/04/18 11:07 AM
02/04/18 11:07 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 143
Carlsbad CA
Mike Thompson Offline
Mike Thompson  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 143
Carlsbad CA
I just bought 2 comp cams to install in BBC rebuilds. Comp told me if I didn't use high zddp breakin oil, it would ruin the cams/lifters, and there would be no warranty coverage. The cams that came out were significantly worn, exhaust down around 10 thou. We used to use Rotella in them, but since Rotella has decreased the additive package, I will be using Amsoil Z-Rod oil after breakin. By the early '90s EPA regs prompted all the major engine manufacturers to use roller cams, but they along with the lifters are pretty expensive unless high performance is desired. I'm building a couple torquers, never to see above 4500 rpm. So fairly light springs will keep the wear down at least that is the plan.

Re: ZDDP in used cars [Re: Building3] #4655857
02/04/18 12:13 PM
02/04/18 12:13 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 325
Rockies
Scdevon Offline
Scdevon  Offline
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 325
Rockies
I'm curious what the psi load is on other parts of an engine besides a flat tappet riding on a cam lobe.

It seems like lots of other engine parts with high loads would be failing even in current production engines if modern low zddp oils were really that lame at EP protection.

What's the psi load on a wrist pin bushing on a twin turbo Ford 2.7 ecoboost making 365 hp and 375 lb ft.?

Or a wrist pin in a supercharged ZO6 Corvette making 650 hp?


2003 Mustang Mach 1. 32V 4.6 Liter. Motorcraft Syn Blend 5W30
1970 Mustang Convertible 302-2V Auto (Stock) M/C 10W30
1970 VW Beetle 1600 DP
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