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Hi I am new on here and Im not sure where to post #4654626
02/03/18 10:30 AM
02/03/18 10:30 AM
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 8
Colorado
Vailshred Offline OP
Vailshred  Offline OP
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 8
Colorado
Hi everyone, I found your forum last eve during my search for some advice on my situation. Im not sure where to post my questions so if you could suggest which thread I should post I would appreciate it. In a nutshell... I have a 2004 Audi 4.2 engine. Motor was disassembled, cylinder walls were coated in Nickel Silicon Carbide (aluminum block), installed new rings and reassembled engine. I ignorantly put in synthetic oil. Im looking for help, suggestions from engine builders or anyone with experience with setting piston rings. I have learned that I should not use synthetic on ring setting.

Thanks in advance

Re: Hi I am new on here and Im not sure where to post [Re: Vailshred] #4654633
02/03/18 10:34 AM
02/03/18 10:34 AM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,801
SD
zrxkawboy Offline
zrxkawboy  Offline
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,801
SD
Welcome to the board. What type of rings were used? Some break in faster/easier than others. (I'm just speaking generally...I've never worked on one of those particular engines.)

Last edited by zrxkawboy; 02/03/18 10:39 AM.

"Think of all the Ford owners who will someday want an automobile." John Dodge

Re: Hi I am new on here and Im not sure where to post [Re: Vailshred] #4654634
02/03/18 10:35 AM
02/03/18 10:35 AM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 2,163
VA
maverickfhs Offline
maverickfhs  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 2,163
VA
welcome

Many really experienced and helpful folks here, you seem to be in right forum.

Above question is beyond my pay grade laugh


2006 Civic EX 202K/AT
2006 Acura TSX 180K/AT
Re: Hi I am new on here and Im not sure where to post [Re: Vailshred] #4654635
02/03/18 10:36 AM
02/03/18 10:36 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,900
Upper Midwest
kschachn Offline
kschachn  Offline
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,900
Upper Midwest
And were did you take the block for Nikasil coating?


1994 BMW 530i, 228K
1996 Honda Accord, 263K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 400K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 271K
Re: Hi I am new on here and Im not sure where to post [Re: Vailshred] #4654637
02/03/18 10:37 AM
02/03/18 10:37 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,001
Texas
4WD Offline
4WD  Offline
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,001
Texas
What is the oil?

Re: Hi I am new on here and Im not sure where to post [Re: Vailshred] #4654672
02/03/18 11:11 AM
02/03/18 11:11 AM
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 8
Colorado
Vailshred Offline OP
Vailshred  Offline OP
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 8
Colorado
OK, Awesome! Thanks for chiming in guys. Here is more info on situation

Cylinder coating was done here http://www.millennium-tech.net/serviceInfo.php?id=12

Mobile 1 0-20. This oil was only in the engine for about 7 miles and 40 min of idling. I switched out to a conventional 20-30 as soon as I realized what I did.

The aluminum cylinder walls on this engine score very easily and its very common. I decided to get them plated to add strength to them. They plate the walls to a little over factory bore, then hone the walls to spec size. I used stock rings from Audi.

Im aware that I messed up pretty bad and am humbled by my lack of seeking advice or knowledge. I followed the Audi rebuild manual and did not question the oil. See the walls from factory are a polished aluminum wall for say. So the manual is saying synthetic is fine in ring replacement. I went to bed one night and realized that my walls are not the same as what the manual says anymore since mine have been coated..
Panic struck hard. Its a 10+hr book time to pull this engine, add another 4 or 5 to get pistons out and then re cross hatch, new rings and so on...

Im crossing my fingers that Since I switched oil so soon, removed all the syn I could and I will change oil again in a few miles, that I can get these rings to seat with out redoing everything.

Im not blowing any smoke but the car has no power at all. Like I said in initial post, the rings have less then 10 miles on them and motor has probably ran for a little over a hour by this time...

Re: Hi I am new on here and Im not sure where to post [Re: Vailshred] #4654674
02/03/18 11:12 AM
02/03/18 11:12 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 19,931
MA, Mittelfranken.de
Trav Offline
Trav  Offline
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 19,931
MA, Mittelfranken.de
Many new cars come right from the factory with synthetic oil. What the problem? Does it burn excess oil?
I have never heard of plating or plasma coating these blocks only boring/honing to an almost mirror finish them finally roughen them slightly to expose silicon particles.

There should be no problem seating the rings on these regardless of the oil used simply because of the silicon particles which are harder than the piston ring, the ring will break in/wear properly regardless if the job was done right.

Edit: I see your link, I never knew they started with plating but the plating seems to have the same properties as the OE as far as silicon particles so the above would still apply.

Last edited by Trav; 02/03/18 11:17 AM.

ASE L1, Master. Deutsch Meisterbrief.
Re: Hi I am new on here and Im not sure where to post [Re: Vailshred] #4654675
02/03/18 11:12 AM
02/03/18 11:12 AM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,255
Waco, TX
Linctex Online content
Linctex  Online Content
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,255
Waco, TX
It REALLY depends on the quality of machine work.

Older engines needed a rougher cylinder wall surface to help "wear in" piston rings that were not 100% perfectly round.

A lot of newer machine practices with very close tolerances are not like that.

You need to ask the company that did the cylinder coating (like aircraft cylinders are coated) what to use. They might suggest synthetic oil from the beginning.

When I install Nikasil aircraft cylinders, I break them in on semi-synthetic.


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: Hi I am new on here and Im not sure where to post [Re: Vailshred] #4654680
02/03/18 11:15 AM
02/03/18 11:15 AM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,255
Waco, TX
Linctex Online content
Linctex  Online Content
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,255
Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: Vailshred
I'm not blowing any smoke but the car has no power at all.


This is bad.

Any number of things can cause this - what are the temperatures like?


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: Hi I am new on here and Im not sure where to post [Re: Linctex] #4654691
02/03/18 11:21 AM
02/03/18 11:21 AM
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 8
Colorado
Vailshred Offline OP
Vailshred  Offline OP
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 8
Colorado
all temps seem normal. Compression test with block cold were between 135 and 145 on all 8. Tops of pistons were damp when I peeked through plug holes, 1 cylinder was dry. I do remember when I took it out for the 7 mile spin it started to gain a little more power towards the end of the drive. Maybe that 1 dry piston was beginning to seat?

Re: Hi I am new on here and Im not sure where to post [Re: Linctex] #4654702
02/03/18 11:26 AM
02/03/18 11:26 AM
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 8
Colorado
Vailshred Offline OP
Vailshred  Offline OP
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 8
Colorado
email from company

Well! This caught me off guard. Lol Our recommendation is to use a zinc rich non synthetic for break-in. The synthetic is soooo good it can deter break-in by lubricating the ring coating meant to aide in break-in. That being said, there are mixed ideas about synthetics effectiveness/ineffectiveness. Personally, I see no advantage in changing over to the non-syn oil at this stage. The additive packages in your syn oil are already attached to the metal parts. A quality non syn, zinc rich will not have enough/proper detergents to remove the synthetic additive package. I would “run what you brung” at this stage.

Re: Hi I am new on here and Im not sure where to post [Re: Vailshred] #4654706
02/03/18 11:28 AM
02/03/18 11:28 AM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 12,192
N.H, U.S.A.
ARCOgraphite Offline
ARCOgraphite  Offline
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 12,192
N.H, U.S.A.
Mobil 1 0w20 is not synthetic oil.

Most NA synthetic oils are petroleum oil base.

This break in fokelore is more at Castor bean oil and other fatty ester oils NOT paraffin oils or poly alpha.

Look elsewhere for issue like bad intake gasketing/sealing ANYWHERE, Air metering connected and leak free, wrong injector wiring.

and ... numero uno: incorrect cam phasing.

Also - BTDT myself - missing ground wire (S) to block and head

time early - but I understand that.

Last edited by ARCOgraphite; 02/03/18 11:30 AM.

2014 Nissan Rogue S CVT, OC#9 41392mi-QSUD10W30 + M110A CHAMP Filter; 2017 Subaru Crosstrek CVT OC#2 ?? mi-SOA/Idemitsu 0w20 + SOA Filter
Re: Hi I am new on here and Im not sure where to post [Re: Vailshred] #4654711
02/03/18 11:32 AM
02/03/18 11:32 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 7,530
Marshfield , MA
andyd Offline
andyd  Offline
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 7,530
Marshfield , MA
Please post a follow up TIA.

the first SBC, the 265 ci, used Boraxo soap powder to seat the rings


'16 Camry LE STP synth 0w20 and STP filter. the Fridge

1994 Ranger ,the Rat, 5w30 dino, STP filter

'16 Camry SE, Valvoline HM 0w20 and OEM filter
Thick oil is better grin2
Re: Hi I am new on here and Im not sure where to post [Re: Vailshred] #4654714
02/03/18 11:34 AM
02/03/18 11:34 AM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 12,192
N.H, U.S.A.
ARCOgraphite Offline
ARCOgraphite  Offline
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 12,192
N.H, U.S.A.
New oils are zinc/phos rich.

ZDP gets used up like a case of beer in a frathouse over time.

That 1200ppm zinc rich oil will have 800 ppm ACTIVE ZDP after a month.

A 25w40 4 stroke motorboat oil is not a bad choice.


2014 Nissan Rogue S CVT, OC#9 41392mi-QSUD10W30 + M110A CHAMP Filter; 2017 Subaru Crosstrek CVT OC#2 ?? mi-SOA/Idemitsu 0w20 + SOA Filter
Re: Hi I am new on here and Im not sure where to post [Re: Vailshred] #4654733
02/03/18 11:46 AM
02/03/18 11:46 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,427
Jupiter, Florida
Cujet Offline
Cujet  Offline
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,427
Jupiter, Florida
Originally Posted By: Vailshred


Im aware that I messed up pretty bad and am humbled by my lack of seeking advice or knowledge.


Not so. Nikasil or other variations on the nickel silicon carbide plating processes always seat the piston rings rapidly. You did nothing wrong and you won't have any issues.

Furthermore, your use of uber-thin oil will not keep the rings from wearing against a freshly honed Nikasil cylinder. Really, it's not a problem. Your lack of power issue lies elsewhere.

Last edited by Cujet; 02/03/18 11:50 AM.

People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence.
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