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Opposed Piston Engine-3 cyl. #4653814
02/02/18 11:01 AM
02/02/18 11:01 AM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 398
Mississippi
Speak2Mountain Online content OP
Speak2Mountain  Online Content OP
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 398
Mississippi

Re: Opposed Piston Engine-3 cyl. [Re: Speak2Mountain] #4653855
02/02/18 12:11 PM
02/02/18 12:11 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,106
Northern Ontario, Canada
Danno Offline
Danno  Offline
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,106
Northern Ontario, Canada
Interesting but I see some pretty big challenges:
Emissions - Fixed port 2 strokes do not do well with this
Weight - extra crankshaft and supporting block structure is heavy
Weight distribution - the extra weight is all high, no good for CG, so hard to adapt to cars
Packaging - It is a tall heavy engine - again maybe target use is SUVs and Trucks.


2016 Sorento SX V6 AWD
2015 KIA RIO SX
2010 Mazda 3 2.0L
2009 Venza V6 AWD
2013 Sonata 2.4L RIP in write-off crash
Re: Opposed Piston Engine-3 cyl. [Re: Speak2Mountain] #4653893
02/02/18 01:04 PM
02/02/18 01:04 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 11,819
Idaho
CT8 Online content
CT8  Online Content
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 11,819
Idaho
Interesting but then I remember whenn the media was pushing how great the Wankle would be. Yes I am a skeptic. The fuel injected out board engines for example are more complicated that the old carb engines but their performance and emissions are stellar in comparison. Good mpgs are always a plus . Over the past year with the driving I do I have been geting 21 to a bit over 23 mpg on my 2015 F150 . More Mpgs would always be better with a lower cost of operation [long term reliability] Lets hope it is a plus and pans out to benefit us all.

Re: Opposed Piston Engine-3 cyl. [Re: Speak2Mountain] #4653909
02/02/18 01:34 PM
02/02/18 01:34 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,420
Jupiter, Florida
Cujet Online content
Cujet  Online Content
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,420
Jupiter, Florida
We can do a number of things to improve thermal efficiency. One is to increase the displacement of a cylinder by using fewer but larger cylinders. As this results in lower thermal loss to exposed surface area. This also serves to reduce piston ring swept area, reducing friction.

Low heat rejection engines can be built using coatings to reduce the transfer of combustion heat to surfaces. Or engines can be operated at very high temperatures, thereby reducing heat flow. (an opposed piston engine is the latter type) as the pistons operate at very high temperatures. It eliminates the cylinder head as a thermal path.

Also, like the modern and hyper efficient (41%) Prius engine, configure the engine to have a higher expansion ratio (more expansion than compression) . Done with intake valve timing AKA Atkinson cycle. In opposed piston designs some think it can be done by port and piston timing via geometry. Possibly including the use of different stroke lengths, different connecting rod lengths, differing piston positions, and so on.



This design may accomplish some of that inherently, however, I fail to see how the predicted huge gains are met. 45% thermal efficiency is, at the moment, an area of operation reserved for well refined diesel engines.

Last edited by Cujet; 02/02/18 01:36 PM.

People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence.
Re: Opposed Piston Engine-3 cyl. [Re: Speak2Mountain] #4653916
02/02/18 01:39 PM
02/02/18 01:39 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5,363
Fort Lauderdale, FL
DoubleWasp Offline
DoubleWasp  Offline
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5,363
Fort Lauderdale, FL
Eliminating the cylinder head and combustion chamber is eliminating a major area of thermal loss. Further, the heat that used to be lost instead goes to another piston.

Could be some real game changing stuff.


07 Lincoln Navigator M1 0w-40/FU
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Re: Opposed Piston Engine-3 cyl. [Re: Speak2Mountain] #4653918
02/02/18 01:41 PM
02/02/18 01:41 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 11,819
Idaho
CT8 Online content
CT8  Online Content
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 11,819
Idaho
Could the gas exhaust vs the diesel exhaust be easier to clean up?


"Don't let your preconceived notions get in the way of facts."
Geoff Metcalf
Re: Opposed Piston Engine-3 cyl. [Re: Speak2Mountain] #4653937
02/02/18 02:15 PM
02/02/18 02:15 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,485
S California
OneEyeJack Offline
OneEyeJack  Offline
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,485
S California
I think the Freevalve engine is the next step.

Re: Opposed Piston Engine-3 cyl. [Re: Speak2Mountain] #4653948
02/02/18 02:25 PM
02/02/18 02:25 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,852
Onondaga County
Miller88 Offline
Miller88  Offline
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,852
Onondaga County
For some reason the video wont' load, but if it is what I think it is, look up the commer TS3 ...


18 Forester 2.5I 6M
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01 Ford F-350 XL 4x4 5M
Re: Opposed Piston Engine-3 cyl. [Re: Speak2Mountain] #4653956
02/02/18 02:31 PM
02/02/18 02:31 PM
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 611
missouri
ragtoplvr Offline
ragtoplvr  Offline
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 611
missouri
The most efficient engine at this point is the Wartsilla 31. Of course, with a bore of 11.8 inches, 16.7 inch stroke, nearly 1000 horsepower per cylinder, and max RPM under 1000, not practical for land transport. Really efficient though.

Rod

Re: Opposed Piston Engine-3 cyl. [Re: Speak2Mountain] #4653997
02/02/18 03:37 PM
02/02/18 03:37 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,002
Michigan
A_Harman Offline
A_Harman  Offline
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,002
Michigan
Opposed piston engines go back for more than 100 years, and were making 40%+ thermal efficiency long ago.
The English had successful OP engines for ship propulsion by the early 1920's, and some of those included waste heat recovery.
The Germans had the Junkers 204 OP diesel for commercial aircraft before WW2, and the 207 version was even turbocharged.
The Americans had the Fairbanks Morse 38 D 8+1/8 for submarine propulsion in WW2, and diesel electric locomotives postwar. That engine is still being constructed in Beloit, Wisconsin.
Then there is the Napier Deltic that is a 3-bank, 18-cylinder OP that was used for locomotives and Royal Navy MTB's. Lovely engine, sounds like a Detroit Diesel on Benzedrine.
I think Achates may be onto something. Cummins recently bought into their project to make a 4MW engine for power generation.


1985 Z51 Corvette track car
2002 Camaro Z28 LS1/6-speed
2001 Dodge Ram 2500 diesel
1972 GMC 1500 shortbed project truck
Re: Opposed Piston Engine-3 cyl. [Re: Speak2Mountain] #4654023
02/02/18 04:38 PM
02/02/18 04:38 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 14,424
Silicon Valley
PandaBear Offline
PandaBear  Offline
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 14,424
Silicon Valley
The rings and pistons would be scraping all over the exhaust ports, how is it going to last at all?


"You keep asking questions PandaBear and you'll end up a vegetarian like my wife" - Camu Mahubah
Re: Opposed Piston Engine-3 cyl. [Re: Danno] #4654090
02/02/18 06:00 PM
02/02/18 06:00 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 911
midwest
JamesBond Offline
JamesBond  Offline
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 911
midwest
Originally Posted By: Danno

Weight distribution - the extra weight is all high, no good for CG, so hard to adapt to cars
Packaging - It is a tall heavy engine - again maybe target use is SUVs and Trucks.


Turn it on its side? Subaru does it.(kinda)

Re: Opposed Piston Engine-3 cyl. [Re: Miller88] #4654125
02/02/18 06:29 PM
02/02/18 06:29 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,743
New Zealand
Silk Offline
Silk  Offline
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,743
New Zealand
Originally Posted By: Miller88
For some reason the video wont' load, but if it is what I think it is, look up the commer TS3 ...


Yes, a rehash of the TS3, but using an extra crank instead of the rockers in the TS3. We didn't hear it running (I wonder why)... I reckon if you heard it running you'd be sold - the TS3 was the best sounding engine ever.


1987 BMW R65 - Penrite V Twin 20/50
2005 Nissan Expert - Gulf Western 10W-40
1996 Volvo T5 - Penrite HPR15 - 15W-60. Ryco syntec filter.
Re: Opposed Piston Engine-3 cyl. [Re: Speak2Mountain] #4654425
02/03/18 02:05 AM
02/03/18 02:05 AM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,226
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,226
Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: Silk
Yes, a rehash of the TS3, but using an extra crank instead of the rockers in the TS3. We didn't hear it running (I wonder why)... I reckon if you heard it running you'd be sold - the TS3 was the best sounding engine ever.




"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: Opposed Piston Engine-3 cyl. [Re: Speak2Mountain] #4654439
02/03/18 03:30 AM
02/03/18 03:30 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,834
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,834
'Stralia
Back in the late '80s, I was doing drawings on jamming a couple of 186s together and opposed pistons...all ideas, no practicality.

If you start messing with crank timing and rod length/stroke, you can achieve a lot of different effectss, including having the pistons "chasing each other with variable volumes at either end...fun with geometry and physics.

Here's the inventor.

I like him


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