Recent Topics
2014 Durango ZF8 transmission fluid recommendation
by MoparMan12. 09/19/18 06:45 AM
Does Rear Heater Need to be On?
by Gebo. 09/19/18 05:04 AM
125 years.
by Silk. 09/19/18 12:38 AM
How a VW DSG Transmission works
by StevieC. 09/18/18 10:42 PM
Full Synthetic vs HM Full Synthetic
by SierraMan. 09/18/18 10:06 PM
Champion AGM batteries
by bbhero. 09/18/18 08:53 PM
General opinion about Cooper CS5 Ultra?
by dan_erickson. 09/18/18 08:37 PM
Rotella Online Rebate
by PumpPusher. 09/18/18 08:13 PM
Audi A4 vs Volkswagen CC...or good old Passat?
by KCJeep. 09/18/18 07:19 PM
GM 454 engine
by dirtymudder. 09/18/18 07:13 PM
High Performance Motorcycle oil...which one?
by Neiz15. 09/18/18 06:50 PM
Need help High Performance Motorcycle oil?
by Neiz15. 09/18/18 06:38 PM
MC FL-500S CUT OPEN
by 53' Stude. 09/18/18 05:15 PM
FORD FACTORY FILTER CUT OPEN
by 53' Stude. 09/18/18 05:06 PM
2019 Harley Davidson FXDR 114
by DuckRyder. 09/18/18 04:59 PM
USS Forrestal question
by cjcride. 09/18/18 03:52 PM
Breaker Box
by Throt. 09/18/18 03:00 PM
Honda metal fuel tank seam leak
by wing0. 09/18/18 02:49 PM
Newest Members
vortex64, 19074, Redright9, Clif67, scotstr
66011 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
65 registered members (Bailes1992, advocate, 1JCB, askani79705, 94astro, Blueskies123, 4 invisible), 1,186 guests, and 38 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics290,627
Posts4,847,659
Members66,011
Most Online3,590
Jan 24th, 2017
Donate to BITOG
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
How much ZDDP do I need? #4652944
02/01/18 10:26 AM
02/01/18 10:26 AM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 842
SD - South Dakota
meborder Offline OP
meborder  Offline OP
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 842
SD - South Dakota
Not sure if there is a hard number or not, but I need to know what kind of oil I should be looking for.

I put a bigger cam in a 305 for my plow truck and upgraded the springs accordingly

It is a hydraulic flat tappet cam with 260/260 advertised duration 204/204 @ 0.050" lift. It has .427" lift at the valve.

The springs are 358lbs/inch. They have 125lbs on the seat and just shy of 300 lbs at lift with this cam.

So the cam isn't wildly aggressive, but moderately so (with regard to cam intensity, not duration). The springs aren't "bone crushing" but they are quite a bit more than stock.

What should I be looking at for oil? I'd like to stay with a 5w30 because this is a winter rig, so that makes it harder.

From what I've found, 800ppm is inadequate for these spring pressures. But I don't need a race oil with 2000ppm either.

Any ideas where I need to be for ZDDP?


Too many cars using too many different oils to list in 150 characters.
Re: How much ZDDP do I need? [Re: meborder] #4652950
02/01/18 10:30 AM
02/01/18 10:30 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,650
Balearic Islands , Spain
FordCapriDriver Offline
FordCapriDriver  Offline
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,650
Balearic Islands , Spain
A well worn flat tappet doesn't need huge amounts of Zddp, but a little extra won't hurt anyway.
Probably the best choice for it is Shell Rotella 10W-30, it's gasoline rated, and being a HDEO it has a healthy dose of Zddp, well above 1000ppm, in the 1200-1400ppm range iirc.


1975 Ford Capri II Ghia 3000 V6, - Shell Helix HX3 20W-50 w/ 20% Rimula R4X 15W-40 HDEO.

1988 Ford Escort Mk4 Xr3i Cabrio, - Shell Rimula R4X 15W-40, w/ 30% Helix 3 20W-50.
Re: How much ZDDP do I need? [Re: meborder] #4652954
02/01/18 10:31 AM
02/01/18 10:31 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,650
Balearic Islands , Spain
FordCapriDriver Offline
FordCapriDriver  Offline
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,650
Balearic Islands , Spain
Or if you want something that flows better when cold Rotella T6 5W-40 and it's a full synthetic again with plenty Zddp.


1975 Ford Capri II Ghia 3000 V6, - Shell Helix HX3 20W-50 w/ 20% Rimula R4X 15W-40 HDEO.

1988 Ford Escort Mk4 Xr3i Cabrio, - Shell Rimula R4X 15W-40, w/ 30% Helix 3 20W-50.
Re: How much ZDDP do I need? [Re: FordCapriDriver] #4652990
02/01/18 11:11 AM
02/01/18 11:11 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,578
wv
krismoriah72 Offline
krismoriah72  Offline
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,578
wv
Didnt those engines produce about 150hp? I had a 77 pickup with the 305..no comment.

Not sure how fresh the rest of your engine is.. the 5w40 is plenty for your needs.. otherwise look at these high mileage oils.

http://www.pqiamerica.com/June%202014/consolidated%20highmileage2014.html

Re: How much ZDDP do I need? [Re: meborder] #4653004
02/01/18 11:21 AM
02/01/18 11:21 AM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 142
Western NY state
Truckedup Offline
Truckedup  Offline
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 142
Western NY state
5-40 may be a light for an older Chevy V-8.. Even if rebuilt the bearing clearance are looser than modern stuff.. Of course it depends how cold it gets where you are .....As mentioned ,less is required once it well broken in, but Chevy Gen 1 engines were never known for long cam life so .generally speaking, 1200 on ZDDP is safe.. I use Rotella 10-30 T4 in my older 4.0 flat tappet Jeeps.. Low temps here are about zero F...cranks over just fine...


World's second fastest vintage Triumph 650, 133 MPH
Re: How much ZDDP do I need? [Re: meborder] #4653074
02/01/18 12:26 PM
02/01/18 12:26 PM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 12,180
N.H, U.S.A.
ARCOgraphite Offline
ARCOgraphite  Offline
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 12,180
N.H, U.S.A.
Moly not zddp.

If you want both, a co in L.A. used to blend synthetic oil for snowblowers that had lots of moly and zddp. Ran that in a Toyota in the mid 2000's and it was steller!



Summer? 25w40 Marine oil or 4T motorbike oil - equivalent and better than API SH in what you need.


2014 Nissan Rogue S CVT, OC#9 41392mi-QSUD10W30 + M110A CHAMP Filter; 2017 Subaru Crosstrek CVT OC#2 ?? mi-SOA/Idemitsu 0w20 + SOA Filter
Re: How much ZDDP do I need? [Re: meborder] #4653083
02/01/18 12:33 PM
02/01/18 12:33 PM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 22
WA
fuzzysig Offline
fuzzysig  Offline
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 22
WA
does zddp protect anything else besides cams and rockers?

Re: How much ZDDP do I need? [Re: meborder] #4653108
02/01/18 12:55 PM
02/01/18 12:55 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,226
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,226
Waco, TX
I am guessing you DID NOT follow the advice of the cam manufacturer when you chose those springs....

That cam is MILD, stock springs are fine!
Why did you go with such ridiculous springs?


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: How much ZDDP do I need? [Re: meborder] #4653136
02/01/18 01:26 PM
02/01/18 01:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 611
missouri
ragtoplvr Offline
ragtoplvr  Offline
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 611
missouri
you can get a 10W30 Motorcycle oil, they will have plenty of additives for flat tappets.

Rod

Re: How much ZDDP do I need? [Re: Linctex] #4653159
02/01/18 01:50 PM
02/01/18 01:50 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 842
SD - South Dakota
meborder Offline OP
meborder  Offline OP
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 842
SD - South Dakota
Originally Posted By: Linctex
I am guessing you DID NOT follow the advice of the cam manufacturer when you chose those springs....

That cam is MILD, stock springs are fine!
Why did you go with such ridiculous springs?


It is a summit cam and I used the springs they recommended. It wasn't until well after I had them installed that I realized they were a lot more spring than really needed. I just went with what they said and didn't even question it.

The actual over the nose pressure is 277 lbs at .427 as calculated.

The engine is a 1990 and had about 36,000 miles on it. Was spotless inside when I opened it up. 150hp is about right. This cam has about 20 degrees more duration and almost .050 more lift on the intake side compared to the stock cam. That's why changed it. Just needed a little more everything everywhere.

I found some amsoil diesel graded 5w30 which has about 1300 ppm of zinc, which I feel pretty good about, but it's not cheap so looking for alternative.


Too many cars using too many different oils to list in 150 characters.
Re: How much ZDDP do I need? [Re: meborder] #4653200
02/01/18 02:41 PM
02/01/18 02:41 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 142
Western NY state
Truckedup Offline
Truckedup  Offline
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 142
Western NY state
From my past experience,220 pounds open, 100 pounds on the seat is fine...it's a few hours of work to change them without pulling the heads....I think in the long run you'll be better off....


World's second fastest vintage Triumph 650, 133 MPH
Re: How much ZDDP do I need? [Re: fuzzysig] #4653224
02/01/18 03:00 PM
02/01/18 03:00 PM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,650
Balearic Islands , Spain
FordCapriDriver Offline
FordCapriDriver  Offline
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,650
Balearic Islands , Spain
Originally Posted By: fuzzysig
does zddp protect anything else besides cams and rockers?

It does not do anything to the rockers.
ZDDP ( Zincdialkyldithiophosphate = Zinc and Phosphorous ) is designed to react chemically to high friction areas which produce heat and creating a film between those parts, specially to keep the followers and cam lobs from tearing eachother apart when in boundary lubrication ( low revs idling ).
Flat tappet camshafts in overhead valve Vee engines are just prone to wear, the camshaft in these engines is not pressure fed, all the oil it gets is the oil that the crankshaft throws around the crankcase.
That is why when breaking in a flat tappet cam you are advised to immediately bring the revs up to 2000-4000 rpm, the higher the engine speed the more oil the camshaft recieves.


1975 Ford Capri II Ghia 3000 V6, - Shell Helix HX3 20W-50 w/ 20% Rimula R4X 15W-40 HDEO.

1988 Ford Escort Mk4 Xr3i Cabrio, - Shell Rimula R4X 15W-40, w/ 30% Helix 3 20W-50.
Re: How much ZDDP do I need? [Re: meborder] #4653254
02/01/18 03:53 PM
02/01/18 03:53 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,002
Michigan
A_Harman Offline
A_Harman  Offline
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,002
Michigan
Originally Posted By: meborder
Originally Posted By: Linctex
I am guessing you DID NOT follow the advice of the cam manufacturer when you chose those springs....

That cam is MILD, stock springs are fine!
Why did you go with such ridiculous springs?


It is a summit cam and I used the springs they recommended. It wasn't until well after I had them installed that I realized they were a lot more spring than really needed. I just went with what they said and didn't even question it.

The actual over the nose pressure is 277 lbs at .427 as calculated.

The engine is a 1990 and had about 36,000 miles on it. Was spotless inside when I opened it up. 150hp is about right. This cam has about 20 degrees more duration and almost .050 more lift on the intake side compared to the stock cam. That's why changed it. Just needed a little more everything everywhere.

I found some amsoil diesel graded 5w30 which has about 1300 ppm of zinc, which I feel pretty good about, but it's not cheap so looking for alternative.


That would be AMSoil HDD, which is a good oil.
Or AMSoil Z-Rod is one that has high zddp, but I'm not sure it's available in 5w30.
Redline 5w30.
Valvoline VR1 10w30 is a conventional oil with high zddp, so it will be cheaper than the boutique synthetics.
I'd shy away from Rotella T5. It's not high zddp.
I think you need 1200 ppm of Phosphorous as a safe starting point.
Did you use any kind of assembly lube with high zddp when you installed the cam?


1985 Z51 Corvette track car
2002 Camaro Z28 LS1/6-speed
2001 Dodge Ram 2500 diesel
1972 GMC 1500 shortbed project truck
Re: How much ZDDP do I need? [Re: A_Harman] #4653292
02/01/18 04:44 PM
02/01/18 04:44 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 842
SD - South Dakota
meborder Offline OP
meborder  Offline OP
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 842
SD - South Dakota
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: meborder
Originally Posted By: Linctex
I am guessing you DID NOT follow the advice of the cam manufacturer when you chose those springs....

That cam is MILD, stock springs are fine!
Why did you go with such ridiculous springs?


It is a summit cam and I used the springs they recommended. It wasn't until well after I had them installed that I realized they were a lot more spring than really needed. I just went with what they said and didn't even question it.

The actual over the nose pressure is 277 lbs at .427 as calculated.

The engine is a 1990 and had about 36,000 miles on it. Was spotless inside when I opened it up. 150hp is about right. This cam has about 20 degrees more duration and almost .050 more lift on the intake side compared to the stock cam. That's why changed it. Just needed a little more everything everywhere.

I found some amsoil diesel graded 5w30 which has about 1300 ppm of zinc, which I feel pretty good about, but it's not cheap so looking for alternative.


That would be AMSoil HDD, which is a good oil.
Or AMSoil Z-Rod is one that has high zddp, but I'm not sure it's available in 5w30.
Redline 5w30.
Valvoline VR1 10w30 is a conventional oil with high zddp, so it will be cheaper than the boutique synthetics.
I'd shy away from Rotella T5. It's not high zddp.
I think you need 1200 ppm of Phosphorous as a safe starting point.
Did you use any kind of assembly lube with high zddp when you installed the cam?


I did. I used the zinc-rich assembly paste on the lobes and lifters face during assembly. I also broke it in at high idle for 15 min with amsoil break in oil which is 2000+ppm zddp. I still have the break in oil in the sump. It probably has 30-45 min of run time on the motor, most of which is at a very fast idle.


Too many cars using too many different oils to list in 150 characters.
Re: How much ZDDP do I need? [Re: meborder] #4653317
02/01/18 05:07 PM
02/01/18 05:07 PM
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,624
Down Under
SR5 Offline
SR5  Offline
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,624
Down Under
The Euro oils often have more ZDDP than typical ILSAC oils which are often 800 ppm or less.

M1 0W40 is listed at 1100 ppm zinc. That's a good step up in ZDDP and with ample winter cold starting ability. It's right at the thin end of the 40 grade oils in terms of viscosity, close to a thick 30 grade.

Just another option for you.

BTW I'm using semi-synthetic Penrite oil with 1200ppm zinc right now, just because....

Last edited by SR5; 02/01/18 05:11 PM. Reason: Penrite

Penrite Vantage 10W40 SN & A3/B4 + Wesfil-Cooper Z154
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

BOB IS THE OIL GUY® Powered by UBB.threads™