Rotella T6 GTL base oil

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I guess you'd have to define what "close" means to you, so that we can have a conversation.

Each is a different class of base stock for a reason; so how close is "close" chemically? Perhaps read our current lead BITOG page for info on base stocks.

However, that does not speak to performance in the crankcase; that's a different matter. How well something protects against wear in real world use can only be understood with UOAs and teardown analysis. Generally, while PAOs, esters and GTLs are impressive, I've not seen any substantial evidence that they can distinguish themselves in daily normal applications for the common BITOGer. That's because most everyone here OCIs far sooner than any disparity is going to show up between different choices. Whereas a OTR trucker or fleet manager whom practices managed OCIs by wear and oil data, might see a difference.
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Generally, while PAOs, esters and GTLs are impressive, I've not seen any substantial evidence that they can distinguish themselves in daily normal applications for the common BITOGer.


But a lot of us aren't "Daily, normal, common BITOGers...."

Folks like me with turbocharged engines and that do a lot of towing would like to know what handles heat best on the piston ring packs and in the turbo bearings.

Yes, Good Ol' SuperTech and Harvest king is good enough for 98% of the people here...

But I have PERSONALLY had to replace the pistons on an engine (*that I owned*) that had all the pistons rings weld themselves in place (a heavy towing engine) and I need an oil that can prevent that.

So, let's focus on the extreme aspects of oil performance, shall we?
 
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Generally, while PAOs, esters and GTLs are impressive, I've not seen any substantial evidence that they can distinguish themselves in daily normal applications for the common BITOGer.


But a lot of us aren't "Daily, normal, common BITOGers...."

Folks like me with turbocharged engines and that do a lot of towing would like to know what handles heat best on the piston ring packs and in the turbo bearings.

Yes, Good Ol' SuperTech and Harvest king is good enough for 98% of the people here...

But I have PERSONALLY had to replace the pistons on an engine (*that I owned*) that had all the pistons rings weld themselves in place (a heavy towing engine) and I need an oil that can prevent that.

So, let's focus on the extreme aspects of oil performance, shall we?

What oil were you running?
 
I like the lower pour point, think it was around -30 prior? GTL is just another reason to love this oil even more! Hopefully it delivers the same awesome results Pennzoil synthetics have for me in the past. I use T6 in pretty much everything else I own, from my 7.3 Powerstroke, Kubota tractor, ATV's, to the lawnmower and snowblower!
 
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Generally, while PAOs, esters and GTLs are impressive, I've not seen any substantial evidence that they can distinguish themselves in daily normal applications for the common BITOGer.


But a lot of us aren't "Daily, normal, common BITOGers...."

Folks like me with turbocharged engines and that do a lot of towing would like to know what handles heat best on the piston ring packs and in the turbo bearings.

Yes, Good Ol' SuperTech and Harvest king is good enough for 98% of the people here...

But I have PERSONALLY had to replace the pistons on an engine (*that I owned*) that had all the pistons rings weld themselves in place (a heavy towing engine) and I need an oil that can prevent that.

So, let's focus on the extreme aspects of oil performance, shall we?



Performance? Sure. Let me tell you about how I define "performance" ... wear data. The job of a lube is to reduce wear. Sure, it does other things. It "cleans" and it "cools". But those are sub-entities to the concept of making the engine last as long as desired. There are only two reliable ways to track engine wear; UOAs and teardown analysis. Because TDs are absurdly expensive, time consuming, and induce measurement errors due to R&R concerns, we pretty much have UOAs are a practical, quick, affordable tool to view wear. So to that end, I look at wear data trends to determine what works and what does not.


Review this UOA string:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4527295/1/Rotella_10w-30_T4;___11.5k_mil
I can assure you that you don't "tow" any harder than what I did with my Dmax this past fall. EGTs sustained between 1100-1300 degF pre-turbo, for hours on end.

Now grab some data from other Dmax engines and show me that I'm not getting every bit as good wear trends as anyone running syns. I have over 550 UOAs of Dmax engines from all manner of use, all brands, all base-stocks, etc. I know what is "normal" statistically.


Your anecdotal story about welded rings is presumably true, but what evidence do you have that the oil used was at fault, or that some other lube would have succeeded? It's an interesting horror story, but there's nothing that can credibly tie it to a failure of one lube, or the guaranteed win of another choice. How do you know that even if you did use a GTL, the rings still would not have stuck? How do you know that under other conditions, other lubes would have not cause them to stick? You have a valid experience and a valid concern, but you have a poor idea of how to judge what will and will not stop some failure mode from happening.


"Folks like me ... would like to know what handles heat best ..."
The "best" controller of heat energy is a good lube system design. Controlling thermal energy transfer is a matter of not only the lube, but also encompasses the entire system from capacity, volume moved, part clearances, rejection heat sinks and exchangers, etc.


- The reason Dmax engines do very well with dino lubes is because the lube system is well designed; that engine series simply could not care less what's in the crankcase, as long as it's a properly spec'd lube. The lube system can transfer enough thermal energy that the entire engine wears well; turbo bearings, pistons, rings, etc. The "package" performs as a unit to manage the heat well, so just about ANY lube does well, even with "severe" use.
- The engine you tore down, and discovered welded ring packs, may be susceptible to harsh use, regardless of what is in the crankcase. Whereas we could possibly accept that a premium syn might delay onset of some untoward condition for a very short time, rings sticking to the pistons is a condition that, depending upon lube system design, may not be stopped by ANY lube, if the conditions are abusive enough. If the rings in your engine example truly welded to the aluminum pistons, then the heat energy present was FAR, FAR greater than any lube would tolerate without severe degradation. Even premium syns can only tolerate perhaps 500 degF for short cycles before they are horribly compromised with extreme oxidation, coking, etc. But the thermal energy it takes to "weld" steel rings into aluminum pistons would be perhaps 1700F or more? I say this because the SAFE sustained operating EGT for my Dmax (with steel rings and aluminum pistons) is 1350 degF, per GM. So if you welded rings in your engine, your localized piston temps were WAY above what ANY oil cold tolerate. No lube you'd reasonably find spec'd for your application will survive temps it takes to melt aluminum and fuse it with steel, or stop it from happening.


Admittedly, you've not told us what engine suffered this problem, but I'm fairly confident that you have an incorrect view of what a lube's job is. It cannot stop two metals from co-joining when the thermal energy required to make that localized metallurgical transaction is FAR GREATER than the safe operating temps of the lube. Something in your lube system failed, and it likely would have happened to ANY lube present.

Do you see my point?
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Generally, while PAOs, esters and GTLs are impressive, I've not seen any substantial evidence that they can distinguish themselves in daily normal applications for the common BITOGer.


But a lot of us aren't "Daily, normal, common BITOGers...."

Folks like me with turbocharged engines and that do a lot of towing would like to know what handles heat best on the piston ring packs and in the turbo bearings.

Yes, Good Ol' SuperTech and Harvest king is good enough for 98% of the people here...

How about a little CAT 3208 making 35 psi and 420 HP at 3,200 continuous in marine - that's 8 hours a day, 5 days a week spinning a Hamilton Jet. There is no truck load anywhere near that for heat. Trucks at least get to shift and coast now and then... 1W pistons and the biggest squirters CAT could supply, careful break-in, and it's still running today - 10 years after I last saw it
smile.gif


Needed two sets of steel shim head gaskets in 10 years. They'd start weeping and it was time. Next step was to O-ring seal the decks, but we lived with head gasket replacements ...

But I have PERSONALLY had to replace the pistons on an engine (*that I owned*) that had all the pistons rings weld themselves in place (a heavy towing engine) and I need an oil that can prevent that.

So, let's focus on the extreme aspects of oil performance, shall we?


How about a small cam Cummins tuned to 444 in a 3-axle Pete tow truck that would pyro 1,200*F in about 1 minute from 550 normal cruise. Yeah we used the "extra" power very sparingly because you could not cool the internals. It was there when needed for short bursts only.

You welded rings - it was insufficient piston cooling. You needed much higher oil flow and bigger squirters to cool the pistons. Somehow I doubt you had either ...

Good old everyday HDEO's have been keeping millions of big rigs going with boost on the peg over the Rocky Mtns for decades. Some of those engines were tuned pretty tight to make the average trip length shorter and keep the speed up on long pulls like 30 miles constant grade.

The oils don't fail, the builds do when the wrench makes a mistake or specs the wrong parts ...
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Generally, while PAOs, esters and GTLs are impressive, I've not seen any substantial evidence that they can distinguish themselves in daily normal applications for the common BITOGer.


But a lot of us aren't "Daily, normal, common BITOGers...."

Folks like me with turbocharged engines and that do a lot of towing would like to know what handles heat best on the piston ring packs and in the turbo bearings.

Yes, Good Ol' SuperTech and Harvest king is good enough for 98% of the people here...

But I have PERSONALLY had to replace the pistons on an engine (*that I owned*) that had all the pistons rings weld themselves in place (a heavy towing engine) and I need an oil that can prevent that.

So, let's focus on the extreme aspects of oil performance, shall we?


Was this a diesel or gasoline engine for heavy towing?
Piston ring microwelding is not something that happens in diesel engines that have NiResist piston ring groove inserts and properly designed crown cooling galleries.
Aftermarket "high performance" forged aluminum diesel pistons do not have them, and they should not be used as a service replacement for factory pistons.
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Generally, while PAOs, esters and GTLs are impressive, I've not seen any substantial evidence that they can distinguish themselves in daily normal applications for the common BITOGer.


But a lot of us aren't "Daily, normal, common BITOGers...."

Folks like me with turbocharged engines and that do a lot of towing would like to know what handles heat best on the piston ring packs and in the turbo bearings.

Yes, Good Ol' SuperTech and Harvest king is good enough for 98% of the people here...

But I have PERSONALLY had to replace the pistons on an engine (*that I owned*) that had all the pistons rings weld themselves in place (a heavy towing engine) and I need an oil that can prevent that.

So, let's focus on the extreme aspects of oil performance, shall we?



Performance? Sure. Let me tell you about how I define "performance" ... wear data. The job of a lube is to reduce wear. Sure, it does other things. It "cleans" and it "cools". But those are sub-entities to the concept of making the engine last as long as desired. There are only two reliable ways to track engine wear; UOAs and teardown analysis. Because TDs are absurdly expensive, time consuming, and induce measurement errors due to R&R concerns, we pretty much have UOAs are a practical, quick, affordable tool to view wear. So to that end, I look at wear data trends to determine what works and what does not.


Review this UOA string:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4527295/1/Rotella_10w-30_T4;___11.5k_mil
I can assure you that you don't "tow" any harder than what I did with my Dmax this past fall. EGTs sustained between 1100-1300 degF pre-turbo, for hours on end.

Now grab some data from other Dmax engines and show me that I'm not getting every bit as good wear trends as anyone running syns. I have over 550 UOAs of Dmax engines from all manner of use, all brands, all base-stocks, etc. I know what is "normal" statistically.


Your anecdotal story about welded rings is presumably true, but what evidence do you have that the oil used was at fault, or that some other lube would have succeeded? It's an interesting horror story, but there's nothing that can credibly tie it to a failure of one lube, or the guaranteed win of another choice. How do you know that even if you did use a GTL, the rings still would not have stuck? How do you know that under other conditions, other lubes would have not cause them to stick? You have a valid experience and a valid concern, but you have a poor idea of how to judge what will and will not stop some failure mode from happening.


"Folks like me ... would like to know what handles heat best ..."
The "best" controller of heat energy is a good lube system design. Controlling thermal energy transfer is a matter of not only the lube, but also encompasses the entire system from capacity, volume moved, part clearances, rejection heat sinks and exchangers, etc.


- The reason Dmax engines do very well with dino lubes is because the lube system is well designed; that engine series simply could not care less what's in the crankcase, as long as it's a properly spec'd lube. The lube system can transfer enough thermal energy that the entire engine wears well; turbo bearings, pistons, rings, etc. The "package" performs as a unit to manage the heat well, so just about ANY lube does well, even with "severe" use.
- The engine you tore down, and discovered welded ring packs, may be susceptible to harsh use, regardless of what is in the crankcase. Whereas we could possibly accept that a premium syn might delay onset of some untoward condition for a very short time, rings sticking to the pistons is a condition that, depending upon lube system design, may not be stopped by ANY lube, if the conditions are abusive enough. If the rings in your engine example truly welded to the aluminum pistons, then the heat energy present was FAR, FAR greater than any lube would tolerate without severe degradation. Even premium syns can only tolerate perhaps 500 degF for short cycles before they are horribly compromised with extreme oxidation, coking, etc. But the thermal energy it takes to "weld" steel rings into aluminum pistons would be perhaps 1700F or more? I say this because the SAFE sustained operating EGT for my Dmax (with steel rings and aluminum pistons) is 1350 degF, per GM. So if you welded rings in your engine, your localized piston temps were WAY above what ANY oil cold tolerate. No lube you'd reasonably find spec'd for your application will survive temps it takes to melt aluminum and fuse it with steel, or stop it from happening.


Admittedly, you've not told us what engine suffered this problem, but I'm fairly confident that you have an incorrect view of what a lube's job is. It cannot stop two metals from co-joining when the thermal energy required to make that localized metallurgical transaction is FAR GREATER than the safe operating temps of the lube. Something in your lube system failed, and it likely would have happened to ANY lube present.

Do you see my point?





R u an engineer by chance? Possibly a quality engineer or an engineer working in aerospace?
 
Originally Posted By: jj51702
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Generally, while PAOs, esters and GTLs are impressive, I've not seen any substantial evidence that they can distinguish themselves in daily normal applications for the common BITOGer.


But a lot of us aren't "Daily, normal, common BITOGers...."

Folks like me with turbocharged engines and that do a lot of towing would like to know what handles heat best on the piston ring packs and in the turbo bearings.

Yes, Good Ol' SuperTech and Harvest king is good enough for 98% of the people here...

But I have PERSONALLY had to replace the pistons on an engine (*that I owned*) that had all the pistons rings weld themselves in place (a heavy towing engine) and I need an oil that can prevent that.

So, let's focus on the extreme aspects of oil performance, shall we?



Performance? Sure. Let me tell you about how I define "performance" ... wear data. The job of a lube is to reduce wear. Sure, it does other things. It "cleans" and it "cools". But those are sub-entities to the concept of making the engine last as long as desired. There are only two reliable ways to track engine wear; UOAs and teardown analysis. Because TDs are absurdly expensive, time consuming, and induce measurement errors due to R&R concerns, we pretty much have UOAs are a practical, quick, affordable tool to view wear. So to that end, I look at wear data trends to determine what works and what does not.


Review this UOA string:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4527295/1/Rotella_10w-30_T4;___11.5k_mil
I can assure you that you don't "tow" any harder than what I did with my Dmax this past fall. EGTs sustained between 1100-1300 degF pre-turbo, for hours on end.

Now grab some data from other Dmax engines and show me that I'm not getting every bit as good wear trends as anyone running syns. I have over 550 UOAs of Dmax engines from all manner of use, all brands, all base-stocks, etc. I know what is "normal" statistically.


Your anecdotal story about welded rings is presumably true, but what evidence do you have that the oil used was at fault, or that some other lube would have succeeded? It's an interesting horror story, but there's nothing that can credibly tie it to a failure of one lube, or the guaranteed win of another choice. How do you know that even if you did use a GTL, the rings still would not have stuck? How do you know that under other conditions, other lubes would have not cause them to stick? You have a valid experience and a valid concern, but you have a poor idea of how to judge what will and will not stop some failure mode from happening.


"Folks like me ... would like to know what handles heat best ..."
The "best" controller of heat energy is a good lube system design. Controlling thermal energy transfer is a matter of not only the lube, but also encompasses the entire system from capacity, volume moved, part clearances, rejection heat sinks and exchangers, etc.


- The reason Dmax engines do very well with dino lubes is because the lube system is well designed; that engine series simply could not care less what's in the crankcase, as long as it's a properly spec'd lube. The lube system can transfer enough thermal energy that the entire engine wears well; turbo bearings, pistons, rings, etc. The "package" performs as a unit to manage the heat well, so just about ANY lube does well, even with "severe" use.
- The engine you tore down, and discovered welded ring packs, may be susceptible to harsh use, regardless of what is in the crankcase. Whereas we could possibly accept that a premium syn might delay onset of some untoward condition for a very short time, rings sticking to the pistons is a condition that, depending upon lube system design, may not be stopped by ANY lube, if the conditions are abusive enough. If the rings in your engine example truly welded to the aluminum pistons, then the heat energy present was FAR, FAR greater than any lube would tolerate without severe degradation. Even premium syns can only tolerate perhaps 500 degF for short cycles before they are horribly compromised with extreme oxidation, coking, etc. But the thermal energy it takes to "weld" steel rings into aluminum pistons would be perhaps 1700F or more? I say this because the SAFE sustained operating EGT for my Dmax (with steel rings and aluminum pistons) is 1350 degF, per GM. So if you welded rings in your engine, your localized piston temps were WAY above what ANY oil cold tolerate. No lube you'd reasonably find spec'd for your application will survive temps it takes to melt aluminum and fuse it with steel, or stop it from happening.


Admittedly, you've not told us what engine suffered this problem, but I'm fairly confident that you have an incorrect view of what a lube's job is. It cannot stop two metals from co-joining when the thermal energy required to make that localized metallurgical transaction is FAR GREATER than the safe operating temps of the lube. Something in your lube system failed, and it likely would have happened to ANY lube present.

Do you see my point?





R u an engineer by chance? Possibly a quality engineer or an engineer working in aerospace?

One doesn't need to be an engineer (be it specialist quality engineer or aerospace engineer) to appreciate what Dnewton says, just as one doesn't need to be a practising oil formulator/oil-chemist to appreciate performance efficacy of an add pack.
One's subject matter matters, not one's background IMHO.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Generally, while PAOs, esters and GTLs are impressive, I've not seen any substantial evidence that they can distinguish themselves in daily normal applications for the common BITOGer.


But a lot of us aren't "Daily, normal, common BITOGers...."

Folks like me with turbocharged engines and that do a lot of towing would like to know what handles heat best on the piston ring packs and in the turbo bearings.

Yes, Good Ol' SuperTech and Harvest king is good enough for 98% of the people here...

How about a little CAT 3208 making 35 psi and 420 HP at 3,200 continuous in marine - that's 8 hours a day, 5 days a week spinning a Hamilton Jet. There is no truck load anywhere near that for heat. Trucks at least get to shift and coast now and then... 1W pistons and the biggest squirters CAT could supply, careful break-in, and it's still running today - 10 years after I last saw it
smile.gif


Needed two sets of steel shim head gaskets in 10 years. They'd start weeping and it was time. Next step was to O-ring seal the decks, but we lived with head gasket replacements ...

But I have PERSONALLY had to replace the pistons on an engine (*that I owned*) that had all the pistons rings weld themselves in place (a heavy towing engine) and I need an oil that can prevent that.

So, let's focus on the extreme aspects of oil performance, shall we?


How about a small cam Cummins tuned to 444 in a 3-axle Pete tow truck that would pyro 1,200*F in about 1 minute from 550 normal cruise. Yeah we used the "extra" power very sparingly because you could not cool the internals. It was there when needed for short bursts only.

You welded rings - it was insufficient piston cooling. You needed much higher oil flow and bigger squirters to cool the pistons. Somehow I doubt you had either ...

Good old everyday HDEO's have been keeping millions of big rigs going with boost on the peg over the Rocky Mtns for decades. Some of those engines were tuned pretty tight to make the average trip length shorter and keep the speed up on long pulls like 30 miles constant grade.

The oils don't fail, the builds do when the wrench makes a mistake or specs the wrong parts ...
Is what you are saying is not to let our preconceived notions get in the way of facts?
 
Originally Posted By: Sam_Julier
Meeting the specification is all that matters. The obsession with base oil on this site is nuts.

Sam


You, sir, clearly do not understand the monumental commitment to overly-zealous base stock and lube brand bigotry that is a pre-requisite for being a member here. Don't you realize that all manner of logic and pragmatic efforts, bound by credible facts and real-world data, are to be eschewed for the superiority of bench racing all topics with reckless abandon?

Your BITOG membership is hereby in jeopardy, and you are scolded, to be beaten with the golden Rod of Viscosity, and lashed with the Whip of Flashpoint for your heresy.
Your punishment is to sit in the corner, say 10 Hail Moly's and 5 Our Filters, and your sins against BITOG will be forgiven.
grin.gif




I, too, now must be adjudicated into the abyss, for I have presumed you to be male (referring to you as "Sir"), because "Sam" could be short for "Samantha". But in today's world, it is possible that a male could be (or had been) "The artist formerly known as Sam" (or Samuel, or Samson, or Samaniqua, or whatever ...). Therefore, though no intent to disparage you or anyone else known outwardly as "Sam" was present on my part, I am guilty of crossing the PC boundary, stepping into the dreaded realm of gender presumption, and thereby offended not only you, but the entire developed world which speaketh the King's English.
I will now have to ban myself.
grin2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Sam_Julier
Meeting the specification is all that matters. The obsession with base oil on this site is nuts.

Much of that is true, but with HDEOs, particularly, be careful what you wish for. Given that there are 15w-40 conventional options that meet the same ACEA and builder approvals as 5w-40 synthetics, should the 15w-40 Group II go up to the price of the 5w-40 synthetic? It meets the specs, after all.
wink.gif
 
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