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Rethinking idea that Fram Ultra is the best filter #4650751
01/30/18 05:50 AM
01/30/18 05:50 AM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,226
CA
CharlieBauer Offline OP
CharlieBauer  Offline OP
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,226
CA
Ever since discovering the microgreen filters are not what they're claimed to be, I've spent a bit of time researching particle count results.

Firstly, I went to Dr Dave's Amsoil EA15K51 particle counts. He ran one filter for 22k miles and another filter for 43k miles.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4131246/1

From this, somewhere after 14.4k is when the particle count drops dramatically. At 14.4k, the ISO cleanliness code was 19/18/16. By 22k, it became 15/14/11 which is a big improvement.

The improvement lasts for a 20k miles or so which is excellent. But it was necessary to wait sometime after 14.4k miles to begin getting the benefit.

Compare this to btanchors particle counts with M1 filters.

http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/btanchors/media/bWVkaWFJZDoxODIyNDE3NQ==/?ref=1

At 5k miles, he got a cleanliness code of 16/15/13.

There is another case with an M1 and a FilterMag where the cleanliness code after just 2.5k miles was 15/14/12.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2531272/1



While the Ultra has tested in ISO tests as having very high filtering efficiency along with high capacity / life, it seems that high efficiency and lower capacity / life cellulose filters may in the real world end up producing lower particle counts and provide the benefit of that sooner.

With the M1 now 99% efficient at 30 microns, it may be that a ToughGuard or a PureOne, optionally with magnets, would actually be much more effective than a Ultra at reducing the real world particle counts.


It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that ain't so.

- mistakenly attributed to Mark Twain
Re: Rethinking idea that Fram Ultra is the best filter [Re: CharlieBauer] #4650755
01/30/18 05:58 AM
01/30/18 05:58 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 406
Detroit
Motorking Offline
Motorking  Offline
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 406
Detroit
Originally Posted By: CharlieBauer
Ever since discovering the microgreen filters are not what they're claimed to be, I've spent a bit of time researching particle count results.

Firstly, I went to Dr Dave's Amsoil EA15K51 particle counts. He ran one filter for 22k miles and another filter for 43k miles.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4131246/1

From this, somewhere after 14.4k is when the particle count drops dramatically. At 14.4k, the ISO cleanliness code was 19/18/16. By 22k, it became 15/14/11 which is a big improvement.

The improvement lasts for a 20k miles or so which is excellent. But it was necessary to wait sometime after 14.4k miles to begin getting the benefit.

Compare this to btanchors particle counts with M1 filters.

http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/btanchors/media/bWVkaWFJZDoxODIyNDE3NQ==/?ref=1

At 5k miles, he got a cleanliness code of 16/15/13.

There is another case with an M1 and a FilterMag where the cleanliness code after just 2.5k miles was 15/14/12.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2531272/1



While the Ultra has tested in ISO tests as having very high filtering efficiency along with high capacity / life, it seems that high efficiency and lower capacity / life cellulose filters may in the real world end up producing lower particle counts and provide the benefit of that sooner.

With the M1 now 99% efficient at 30 microns, it may be that a ToughGuard or a PureOne, optionally with magnets, would actually be much more effective than a Ultra at reducing the real world particle counts.


[b][/b]So your making assumptions and speculating on something you have no test data for?


Jay M Buckley
FRAM
(248) 808-4551
[email protected]

Re: Rethinking idea that Fram Ultra is the best filter [Re: CharlieBauer] #4650757
01/30/18 05:59 AM
01/30/18 05:59 AM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 18,709
PNW
ZeeOSix Offline
ZeeOSix  Offline
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Posts: 18,709
PNW
How can you make any conclusion about this if you don't have any similar particle count and cleanliness code for the Ultra? Not all full synthetic media performs the same.

Re: Rethinking idea that Fram Ultra is the best filter [Re: Motorking] #4650761
01/30/18 06:08 AM
01/30/18 06:08 AM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,226
CA
CharlieBauer Offline OP
CharlieBauer  Offline OP
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,226
CA
Originally Posted By: Motorking
So your making assumptions and speculating on something you have no test data for?


Kind of. I using what data I can find to make a decision.

Same thing I did when I purchased Fram Ultras.

Now I'm simply exploring other decision making criteria. I'm entertaining the possibility that filter media type (cellulose or blend) that loads up faster may result in lower particle counts sooner in an oci. I seem to have data that supports that possibility.

That may mean switching to the Tough Guard. Who knows. As the title says, I'm "Rethinking". I did actually find one particle count for the Ultra which is pretty good at 5k miles but it was just a single UOA.


It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that ain't so.

- mistakenly attributed to Mark Twain
Re: Rethinking idea that Fram Ultra is the best filter [Re: CharlieBauer] #4650768
01/30/18 06:20 AM
01/30/18 06:20 AM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 18,709
PNW
ZeeOSix Offline
ZeeOSix  Offline
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 18,709
PNW
Originally Posted By: CharlieBauer
If there were good particle count data on the Fram Ultra, then I'd use that. But there isn't. So I'm entertaining the possibility that a filter media type that loads up faster may result in lower particle counts sooner in an oci

Total assumption. Like said, not all media performs the same - especially if some are dual layer and some are not.

For a real conclusion you need actual cleanliness code data fron each filter used in the same conditions with the same motor oil on the same engine. Even the PC data you found and listed in your first post are not apples to apples.

Re: Rethinking idea that Fram Ultra is the best filter [Re: ZeeOSix] #4650771
01/30/18 06:21 AM
01/30/18 06:21 AM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,226
CA
CharlieBauer Offline OP
CharlieBauer  Offline OP
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,226
CA
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: CharlieBauer
If there were good particle count data on the Fram Ultra, then I'd use that. But there isn't. So I'm entertaining the possibility that a filter media type that loads up faster may result in lower particle counts sooner in an oci

Total assumption. Like said, not all media performs the same. For a real conclusion you need actual cleanliness code data fron each filter jsed in the same conditions with the same motor oil. Even the PC data you found and listed in your first post are not apples to apples.


Yes I understand that.

What do you do in the absence of data that is pertinent to your decision criteria?

And of course, we're not going to ever get this data in a format that is comparable enough. In the real world, we always end up having to make decisions with incomplete data. Doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the Fram Ultra! It's a great filter and I'm using it now!


It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that ain't so.

- mistakenly attributed to Mark Twain
Re: Rethinking idea that Fram Ultra is the best filter [Re: CharlieBauer] #4650772
01/30/18 06:24 AM
01/30/18 06:24 AM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 18,709
PNW
ZeeOSix Offline
ZeeOSix  Offline
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 18,709
PNW
Originally Posted By: CharlieBauer
What do you do in the absence of data that is pertinent to your decision criteria?

I don't make any conclusions because the "theory" is not validated with solid evidence.

Go read my last post above again, added some info.

Last edited by ZeeOSix; 01/30/18 06:33 AM.
Re: Rethinking idea that Fram Ultra is the best filter [Re: ZeeOSix] #4650774
01/30/18 06:30 AM
01/30/18 06:30 AM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,226
CA
CharlieBauer Offline OP
CharlieBauer  Offline OP
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,226
CA
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: CharlieBauer
What do you do in the absence of data that is pertinent to your decision criteria?

I don't make any conclusions because the "theory" is not validated with solid evidence.

Go read my last post above again, added some info.


Like I said, there isn't going to be solid enough evidence on this, so some inferring and assumptions is all I have.

If you have some actual information to provide, then that is welcome. But apart from that, what you're telling me is very very obvious.

And in any case, this is simply a case of deciding between using a Tough Guard or an Ultra. Kind of like choosing between M1 and M1 EP. Not going to go wrong with either unless you run one longer than specified.


It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that ain't so.

- mistakenly attributed to Mark Twain
Re: Rethinking idea that Fram Ultra is the best filter [Re: CharlieBauer] #4650778
01/30/18 06:33 AM
01/30/18 06:33 AM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 18,709
PNW
ZeeOSix Offline
ZeeOSix  Offline
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 18,709
PNW
And wouldn't you think that a filter that tests better in ISO 4548-12 would also have a better cleanlines code in real use? Lots of people think filters magically become super efficient in real use even though their 4548-12 test sucked.

But the SAE bus study test showed that the oil filters that tested best in the lab for efficiency also showed to result in less engine wear (which means cleaner oil, better cleanliness code) when used in feild tests.

Re: Rethinking idea that Fram Ultra is the best filter [Re: ZeeOSix] #4650787
01/30/18 07:02 AM
01/30/18 07:02 AM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,226
CA
CharlieBauer Offline OP
CharlieBauer  Offline OP
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,226
CA
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
And wouldn't you think that a filter that tests better in ISO 4548-12 would also have a better cleanlines code in real use? Lots of people think filters magically become super efficient in real use even though their 4548-12 test sucked.

But the SAE bus study test showed that the oil filters that tested best in the lab for efficiency also showed to result in less engine wear (which means cleaner oil, better cleanliness code) when used in feild tests.


Ok I'll go lookup the bus study.

There is some info out there that the ISO test and real world results may differ.

One of the links I provided shows that M1 filters consistently achieved a better cleanliness code than the higher ISO test rated Amsoil filter, in the same equipment at the same mileage of 5k. And the long life Amsoil filter had not caught up at 10k in that same application.


It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that ain't so.

- mistakenly attributed to Mark Twain
Re: Rethinking idea that Fram Ultra is the best filter [Re: CharlieBauer] #4650792
01/30/18 07:22 AM
01/30/18 07:22 AM
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,531
Central Maryland
HangFire Offline
HangFire  Offline
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,531
Central Maryland
Sorry Charlie, thinking is NOT allowed on this sub-forum. You must submit to the opinion of the most rabid poster here.


Various musings: http://hangfire.net
Re: Rethinking idea that Fram Ultra is the best filter [Re: CharlieBauer] #4650794
01/30/18 07:28 AM
01/30/18 07:28 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,560
SE Texas
2015_PSD Offline
2015_PSD  Offline
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,560
SE Texas
So...you take:

1. Filters from different manufacturers
2. Filters with and without filter magnets
3. Test data from two different labs
4. Input data from different vehicles/drivers/maintenance schedules

"Analyze" it and from this you cobble together a "conclusion"? I assume you realize that nothing has been proved or disproved and this would not even qualify as a SWAG.


2018 MB AMG GLC43 3.0L Coupe - Castrol 0W-40/Purflux
2018 MB C300 2.0L - M1 0W-40/OEM
2015 F-250 6.7L PS Diesel - Delo 15W-40/CQ Blue
2014 Explorer 3.5L Limited - M1 AFE 0W-20/FU
Re: Rethinking idea that Fram Ultra is the best filter [Re: CharlieBauer] #4650803
01/30/18 07:43 AM
01/30/18 07:43 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,341
Kansas
Kruse Offline
Kruse  Offline
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,341
Kansas
I was in an auto parts store the other day and a guy put down a Fram filter, picked up a competitor's filter and proceeded to the check out counter.
Suddenly, two guys came out of nowhere and beat the guy senseless!

Zee and Motorking, what do you guys do for a daytime job?

Re: Rethinking idea that Fram Ultra is the best filter [Re: HangFire] #4650812
01/30/18 08:00 AM
01/30/18 08:00 AM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,801
SD
zrxkawboy Offline
zrxkawboy  Offline
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,801
SD
Originally Posted By: HangFire
Sorry Charlie, thinking is NOT allowed on this sub-forum. You must submit to the opinion of the most rabid poster here.


Well said, HF.

Charlie, I completely understand what you're saying. You're not claiming to have all the data/answers, just using what you have, and exploring new possibilities. Unfortunately, you've triggered the forums Fram reps, and as you can see, that's not a pretty sight.


"Think of all the Ford owners who will someday want an automobile." John Dodge

Re: Rethinking idea that Fram Ultra is the best filter [Re: CharlieBauer] #4650818
01/30/18 08:16 AM
01/30/18 08:16 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 988
Rockwall, Texas
Old Mustang Guy Offline
Old Mustang Guy  Offline
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 988
Rockwall, Texas
I submit that your car will last just as long on the OE filter. AC Delco on the Acadia and Toyota on my Avalon.

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