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Finally found official Mann filter efficiency #'s #4650738
01/30/18 03:56 AM
01/30/18 03:56 AM
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CharlieBauer Offline OP
CharlieBauer  Offline OP
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https://oe-products.mann-hummel.com/fileadmin/user_upload/kataloge/MANN_HUMMEL_Liquid_Filters_EN.pdf

There are a lot of filter efficiencies listed here. Unfortunately, they don't include the microglass elements.

It was previously stated on this forum (many times) that the Mann W 719/30 spin on filter was 99.5% to 99.9% efficient at just 9 microns. This information apparently supplied directly by a Mann engineer.

Turns out that it, and many other Mann cellulose filters and elements, are 99% at 38 microns and 50% at 20 microns.


It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that ain't so.

- mistakenly attributed to Mark Twain
Re: Finally found official Mann filter efficiency #'s [Re: CharlieBauer] #4650883
01/30/18 08:44 AM
01/30/18 08:44 AM
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Iowa
Iowegian Offline
Iowegian  Offline
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Iowa
Thanks!
Great find!


2011 Equinox, 2.4l
2009 Sienna, 3.5l
Re: Finally found official Mann filter efficiency #'s [Re: CharlieBauer] #4651161
01/30/18 01:32 PM
01/30/18 01:32 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 7,153
Mahzurrah!
KCJeep Offline
KCJeep  Offline
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Mahzurrah!
Ouch!


2018 VW Passat GT VR6 - 1k - New FF
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Re: Finally found official Mann filter efficiency #'s [Re: KCJeep] #4651449
01/30/18 06:05 PM
01/30/18 06:05 PM
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CharlieBauer Offline OP
CharlieBauer  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Ouch!


Indeed.

I did find efficiency ratings for fibre-glass oil filters for compressors. They were 99% at 10 microns and 50% at 4 microns.


It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that ain't so.

- mistakenly attributed to Mark Twain
Re: Finally found official Mann filter efficiency #'s [Re: CharlieBauer] #4651458
01/30/18 06:28 PM
01/30/18 06:28 PM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,566
MN
oil_film_movies Offline
oil_film_movies  Offline
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MN
What the ... They don't have one of the most popular BMW oil filters ever made: The HU 816 x is missing! Page 41 doesn't have it.

Re: Finally found official Mann filter efficiency #'s [Re: CharlieBauer] #4651466
01/30/18 06:39 PM
01/30/18 06:39 PM
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MN
oil_film_movies Offline
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MN
And the efficiency numbers are using ISO 16889, not the usual 4548-12 used for engine oil filters. The numbers may not compare well. Apples to oranges.

Re: Finally found official Mann filter efficiency #'s [Re: oil_film_movies] #4651474
01/30/18 06:51 PM
01/30/18 06:51 PM
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CharlieBauer Offline OP
CharlieBauer  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
What the ... They don't have one of the most popular BMW oil filters ever made: The HU 816 x is missing! Page 41 doesn't have it.


Let's hope it's 99% at 38 microns and 50% at 14 microns like most of the others on that page.

Worst case is being like the HU 921 X which is only 99% efficient above 50 microns and 50% at 20 microns.

They do look similar. hide


It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that ain't so.

- mistakenly attributed to Mark Twain
Re: Finally found official Mann filter efficiency #'s [Re: oil_film_movies] #4651514
01/30/18 07:35 PM
01/30/18 07:35 PM
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Posts: 19,271
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ZeeOSix Offline
ZeeOSix  Offline
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Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
And the efficiency numbers are using ISO 16889, not the usual 4548-12 used for engine oil filters. The numbers may not compare well. Apples to oranges.


ISO 16889 is specifically geared towards "hydraulic fluid power filter elements that exhibit an average filtration ratio greater than or equal to 75 for particle sizes less than or equal to 25 śm(c)". Different animal and purpose than ISO 4548-12.

See section on ISO 16889 in the link below about 2/3 the way down on the page. ISO 4548-12 is discussed a ways further down on the page. This is a good reference showing all the filter testing methods for various fluids and for air filters too.

https://webstore.ansi.org/particle-testing/filters.aspx

Re: Finally found official Mann filter efficiency #'s [Re: oil_film_movies] #4651530
01/30/18 07:58 PM
01/30/18 07:58 PM
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Posts: 1,255
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CharlieBauer Offline OP
CharlieBauer  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
And the efficiency numbers are using ISO 16889, not the usual 4548-12 used for engine oil filters. The numbers may not compare well. Apples to oranges.


You may be able to glean something from poster ISO55000 in the following threads about the two tests and the issue of comparability within, across and to real world results.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3694658

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3694937/ISO_4548_&_ISO_16889_S


It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that ain't so.

- mistakenly attributed to Mark Twain
Re: Finally found official Mann filter efficiency #'s [Re: CharlieBauer] #4651541
01/30/18 08:17 PM
01/30/18 08:17 PM
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ZeeOSix Offline
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Originally Posted By: CharlieBauer
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
And the efficiency numbers are using ISO 16889, not the usual 4548-12 used for engine oil filters. The numbers may not compare well. Apples to oranges.


You may be able to glean something from poster ISO55000 in the following threads about the two tests and the issue of comparability within, across and to real world results.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3694658

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3694937/ISO_4548_&_ISO_16889_S


That was a classic - LoL. I think someone was really trying to find a way to defend the poor WIX XP back then.

ISO 16889 is not used for lubricating oil filters like used in everyday passenger cars - that test is used for high efficiency filters used in hydraulic oil applications. ISO 4548-12 is used for passenger car oil filters, just like the test inscription says on the link I provided in my previous post.

Re: Finally found official Mann filter efficiency #'s [Re: CharlieBauer] #4651593
01/30/18 09:31 PM
01/30/18 09:31 PM
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CharlieBauer Offline OP
CharlieBauer  Offline OP
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I just doubt that a company like Mann would choose to test their filters and publish the results in a way that understates their performance relative to the competition.

ISO5500 was making a point that even within ISO 4548, you can't compare across manufacturers unless you know how they set up the test.


It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that ain't so.

- mistakenly attributed to Mark Twain
Re: Finally found official Mann filter efficiency #'s [Re: CharlieBauer] #4651629
01/30/18 10:36 PM
01/30/18 10:36 PM
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ZeeOSix Offline
ZeeOSix  Offline
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Originally Posted By: CharlieBauer
I just doubt that a company like Mann would choose to test their filters and publish the results in a way that understates their performance relative to the competition.

ISO5500 was making a point that even within ISO 4548, you can't compare across manufacturers unless you know how they set up the test.


If you find a full blown copy of ISO 4548-12 it's pretty clear how you're supposed to do the test. It's very stringent. DId you also see where he said in those old threads where he wasn't even familiar with ISO 4548-12 and had never seen or used that test? Just sayin'.

Re: Finally found official Mann filter efficiency #'s [Re: ZeeOSix] #4651651
01/30/18 11:39 PM
01/30/18 11:39 PM
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CharlieBauer Offline OP
CharlieBauer  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: CharlieBauer
I just doubt that a company like Mann would choose to test their filters and publish the results in a way that understates their performance relative to the competition.

ISO5500 was making a point that even within ISO 4548, you can't compare across manufacturers unless you know how they set up the test.


If you find a full blown copy of ISO 4548-12 it's pretty clear how you're supposed to do the test. It's very stringent. DId you also see where he said in those old threads where he wasn't even familiar with ISO 4548-12 and had never seen or used that test? Just sayin'.


I saw that but then he said he went and read it and concluded that the standard couldn't be used to compare results from one company to the next because the standard allowed enough of a difference in testing parameters.

Unfortunately, the thread didn't progress to comparing 16889 vs 4842.

I did find something else interesting though in ISO 4842:

Part 4: Initial particle retention efficiency, life and cumulative efficiency (gravimetric method).

This section would seem to contain the numbers that were of interest to me in the other thread. As I don't have a copy of the standard, can you confirm the contents of that part?


It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that ain't so.

- mistakenly attributed to Mark Twain
Re: Finally found official Mann filter efficiency #'s [Re: CharlieBauer] #4651665
01/31/18 12:28 AM
01/31/18 12:28 AM
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ZeeOSix Offline
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Originally Posted By: CharlieBauer
I saw that but then he said he went and read it and concluded that the standard couldn't be used to compare results from one company to the next because the standard allowed enough of a difference in testing parameters.


If he was trying to imply that you can't compare Company A's to Company B's to Company C's ISO 4548-12 test results then he's wrong. The whole purpose of ISO 4548-12 is for manufactures to use a stringent testing standard to ensure an apples-to-apples comparison.

Now if the test procedure is purposely not followed, or the data is 'fudged' somehow during the test of data reduction then that's a whole different issue.

Re: Finally found official Mann filter efficiency #'s [Re: CharlieBauer] #4651674
01/31/18 01:02 AM
01/31/18 01:02 AM
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ZeeOSix Offline
ZeeOSix  Offline
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Originally Posted By: CharlieBauer
Unfortunately, the thread didn't progress to comparing 16889 vs 4842.


You must mean 4548-12. It didn't progress because he was trying to compare two different procedures meant to test two different kinds of filters. There might have been similarities between the two test procedures, but you couldn't really compare a filter tested per 16889 directly to a filter tested per 4548-12 and have an true apples-to-apples comparison.





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