Great video on lubrication engineering

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Well, I made it through six minutes. I think I got the gist of his experience: thinner provides better protection due to quicker circulation on start-up. What did he talk about for the other 38 minutes?
 
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Well, I made it through six minutes. I think I got the gist of his experience: thinner provides better protection due to quicker circulation on start-up. What did he talk about for the other 38 minutes?


Which is wrong. As long as the oil is pumpable, each rotation of the oil pump moves the same volume of oil regardless of viscosity.

It’s physics. Thinner oil does not magically make a positive displacement pump increase pumping capacity.

Now in the cold, a thinner oil could have less resistance to flow, thus making it easier to start. But the thin oil takes the same amount of time to fill the galleries as the thicker stuff
 
I nearly turned it off at the startup wear/flow , but sat through it.

I give him a solid 7.5/10.

It IS worth a listen provided you weed out a couple of those things, and also note that he's talking racing.

Some pearls that the average BITOGer needs to understand, and he makes the point.
* NASCAR run 20s, to reduce friction/make power. it's not just a retrofit into older small blocks, it was enabled by the technology to microfinish parts.
* clearances and oil pressures on the big ends and rods, versus viscosity, and failures in early adopters of thin.
* Viscosity index is good...provided you can get there without VII.
* Cams and pston ring life is additive dependent.(*)
* Drag cars on 0W5, NASCAR on 0W20, dirt track on 20W50 in addition to the above have different operating regimes, and cooling...that needs to be taken into account.

(*) He's a bit fixated on flow, but again in the context of different forms of racing, he's got some points, particularly related to valvetrain.
* some racing series have multiple heats and small number of laps...his premise is that volume flow rate to the cams is important there.
* Valve spring and rocker arm life (in series with stock rockers) has to do with cooling, which he equated with flow, but then goes on to explain that front left valve gear get trashed in circle track. My take there is the flow up the pushrod is the same for each of those locations, it's the amount of pooling that's giving the cooling effect...more flow might help 'though.
 
Originally Posted By: SilverFusion2010
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Well, I made it through six minutes. I think I got the gist of his experience: thinner provides better protection due to quicker circulation on start-up. What did he talk about for the other 38 minutes?


Which is wrong. As long as the oil is pumpable, each rotation of the oil pump moves the same volume of oil regardless of viscosity.

It’s physics. Thinner oil does not magically make a positive displacement pump increase pumping capacity.

Now in the cold, a thinner oil could have less resistance to flow, thus making it easier to start. But the thin oil takes the same amount of time to fill the galleries as the thicker stuff


Yep, that's one of the holes in his presentation, the statement multiple times about the oil getting there quicker, and 70% of wear is at startup, and the statement that residual oil doesn't help.

But he nearly gets there when talking about side leakage and oil pressure.


There's clearly a difference, and certainly more so on cold oil...enough to make a difference when running the ragged edge of spring pressures and cam profiles ?

maybe

But again, it's the warmup phase, not the gallery filling time that he uses a few times.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
It IS worth a listen provided you weed out a couple of those things, and also note that he's talking racing.

The picture of the Ferrari F1 car is precious, too. Joe Gibbs annual oil revenues are probably less than what Shell pays to the Ferrari team for sponsorship.
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted By: SilverFusion2010
Originally Posted By: Indydriver
Well, I made it through six minutes. I think I got the gist of his experience: thinner provides better protection due to quicker circulation on start-up. What did he talk about for the other 38 minutes?


Which is wrong. As long as the oil is pumpable, each rotation of the oil pump moves the same volume of oil regardless of viscosity.

It’s physics. Thinner oil does not magically make a positive displacement pump increase pumping capacity.

Now in the cold, a thinner oil could have less resistance to flow, thus making it easier to start. But the thin oil takes the same amount of time to fill the galleries as the thicker stuff



Well not according to this video which has been shown several times. This is the extreme side of cold and vis, but the point is thinner oils flow to the top end quicker than thicker oils. Engine test starts about the 5 min mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWiQyR7PWII
 
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Originally Posted By: tig1
Well not according to this video which has been shown several times. This is the extreme side of cold and vis, but the point is thinner oils flow to the top end quicker than thicker oils. Engine test starts about the 5 min mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWiQyR7PWII


Ahhh, the old tig1 wheelout of oils at and beyond the limits of pumpability...how many times ???

Why do you keep wheeling THIS out ???
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
tig1 said:
Well not according to this video which has been shown several times. This is the extreme side of cold and vis, but the point is thinner oils flow to the top end quicker than thicker oils. Engine test starts about the 5 min mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWiQyR7PWII


Ahhh, the old tig1 wheelout of oils at and beyond the limits of pumpability...how many times ???

Why do you keep wheeling THIS out ???

It simply shows the time lag with oil flow to the upper end of an engine, at least for me. Again this demo is at the extrems of oil wt and temp. I get that, but I have experienced this myself in my own engines many years ago in -20F temps using 10-40 oils. Thanks for asking.

Gerald
 
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Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: Shannow
tig1 said:
Well not according to this video which has been shown several times. This is the extreme side of cold and vis, but the point is thinner oils flow to the top end quicker than thicker oils. Engine test starts about the 5 min mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWiQyR7PWII


Ahhh, the old tig1 wheelout of oils at and beyond the limits of pumpability...how many times ???

Why do you keep wheeling THIS out ???

It simply shows the time lag with oil flow to the upper end of an engine, at least for me. Again this demo is at the extrems of oil wt and temp. I get that, but I have experienced this myself in my own engines many years ago in -20F temps using 10-40 oils. Thanks for asking.

Gerald


Yeah, but the quoted video was about starting and racing engines under various conditions, NOT about starting an engine 30F below it's rated temperature range.

Wasn't it ?
 
I was referring to SilverFusion's comment and the Esso video, nothing to do about the OP's video. Sorry you were confused.
 
Originally Posted By: tig1
s. This is the extreme side of cold and vis, but the point is thinner oils flow to the top end quicker than thicker oils. Engine test starts about the 5 min mark.

Note that SilverFusion2010 pointed used the qualifier, "[a]s long as the oil is pumpable...." In the video in question, one of the oils was not pumpable.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: tig1
s. This is the extreme side of cold and vis, but the point is thinner oils flow to the top end quicker than thicker oils. Engine test starts about the 5 min mark.

Note that SilverFusion2010 pointed used the qualifier, "[a]s long as the oil is pumpable...." In the video in question, one of the oils was not pumpable.


Note the video I provided compared 0-30 synthetic to 10-30 dino(lots of wax in the oil) and was pumpable at 6:40-7:00 or so. Normally folks claim 10-30 dino flows(pumpable) great even at very cold temps. Not sure what you mean one of the oils was not pumpable?
 
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Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: Garak
tig1 said:
s. This is the extreme side of cold and vis, but the point is thinner oils flow to the top end quicker than thicker oils. Engine test starts about the 5 min mark.

Note that SilverFusion2010 pointed used the qualifier, "[a]s long as the oil is pumpable...." In the video in question, one of the oils was not pumpable.


Note the video I provided compared 0-30 synthetic to 10-30 dino(lots of wax in the oil) and was pumpable at 6:40-7:00 or so. Normally folks claim 10-30 dino flows(pumpable) great even at very cold temps. Not sure what you mean one of the oils was not pumpable? [/quote

tig1, we talk about oil flow at 0C, you wheel out the video for -40C, and claim it proves superior flow. We talk about stating in the desert, you wheel out the -40C video and claim it proves 0W has superior flow.

When we point out that wasnt' the topic of dicsussion, and at "pumpable" ranges, there's ZERO difference, you say "just look at the video, there's all the proof that you need".

Here's J300, it gives you an indication of what oils you would need when starting your race engine (the OP's video) at different temperatures...i.e at what temperatures the oil is expected to be "pumpable" and make it's way through the engine.

SAE-J300-600x386.jpg


If YOUR local racetrack is -40C...then of course 0W flows better.
If your local racetrack doesn't go below 0C, then anything is pumpable.
 
Originally Posted By: tig1
Note the video I provided compared 0-30 synthetic to 10-30 dino(lots of wax in the oil) and was pumpable at 6:40-7:00 or so. Normally folks claim 10-30 dino flows(pumpable) great even at very cold temps. Not sure what you mean one of the oils was not pumpable?

It wasn't pumpable at the initial starting conditions, which is what the point is for CCS and MRV. You let the oil pump mash away at an unsuitable oil long enough, it will pump. If one is foolish enough to start a vehicle in -40 with a 20w-50, and yes, it's happened, that doesn't mean the oil won't pump until spring. It's still not a suitable oil for that ambient temperature, and I would say it was not pumpable, even though it will eventually start to pump.

Try that same test with a 10w-30 synthetic and a 10w-30 conventional of the same specifications and try that comparison. Or, better yet, take the two 10w-30 options and try them at -15 C and see that there is no difference between the time the oil flows. Or, better yet still, take the two original oils in the video and jack the temperature to -15 C.

Shannow: You butchered and transposed tig1's and my quotes something fierce.
wink.gif
 
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