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#4642763 - 01/22/18 10:36 AM Heat Pump / Air handler replacement
jonnied1 Offline


Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 127
Loc: WV
My present system is a Lennox.
12hpb30-6p
2 1/2 ton
12 SEER
30,000BTU
2002 Mfg. date
208/230v single phase

My question is what kind of energy savings can I expect by replacing the units with a new more efficient, say a 19 SEER, multi or variable speed heat pump and air handler.

I am not looking to go to a larger heat pump.
The 12 SEER system just cannot provide the heat required when the outside temps drop below around 25 deg. F.
At this point the electric elements will come on in the air handler to maintain set temp in the house.
It also fails to keep the house cool in the summer when the outside air temp is in the 90's. Inside temp will not get below about 78 deg.
The system is serviced every year and operating properly within it's design range.
Additional insulation is not an option in my homes construction.
Any info would be appreciated.
Thanks

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#4642772 - 01/22/18 10:51 AM Re: Heat Pump / Air handler replacement [Re: jonnied1]
WyrTwister Offline


Registered: 01/13/13
Posts: 1532
Loc: Texas
If the present system does not do an adequate job of cooling , make sure it is fully charged , coils are clean , filter is clean , duct work is OK and free flowing .

If you find no discrepancies , get a professional to what size you need for both heat & cool . Your system may be under sized .

Also , consider Mini Split heat pumps ?


Edited by WyrTwister (01/22/18 10:51 AM)
_________________________
Wyr
God bless

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#4642799 - 01/22/18 11:06 AM Re: Heat Pump / Air handler replacement [Re: jonnied1]
InhalingBullets Offline


Registered: 08/07/12
Posts: 533
Loc: TEXAS
How many sq footage is your house/ and what kind of insulation do you have if any? I have family in the HVAC business here in TX and they usually recommend for people to go a 1/2 ton larger unit if it is a heat pump. The new 2.5 ton AC may keep up fine but the Heat Pump my be overworked. We have a 2.5 ton and a 4 ton unit on our home that we are replacing in a a few weeks. We are stepping up the 4 ton to a 4.5 ton and the 2.5 to a 3 ton with heat pumps instead of the heat strips we currently have. We have no issues cooling the home with the current set up but the heat is lacking and expensive. Our heat bills are usually a hundred bucks more a month than A/C...in Texas no less!
_________________________
'16 Toyota Prius 4
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#4642835 - 01/22/18 11:35 AM Re: Heat Pump / Air handler replacement [Re: jonnied1]
Nick1994 Online   content


Registered: 02/19/13
Posts: 10130
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Any way to check the duct work? My mom's house couldn't keep cool to save it's life all summer until I found a broken flexible duct and fixed it, the house was incredibly cooler afterwards.
_________________________
2015 Hyundai Sonata 2.4L 79k PU 5w30 & OEM
2000 Toyota Camry 2.2L 228k M1 AFE 0w30 & Wix
1996 Jeep Cherokee 4.0L 146k M1 HM 10w40 & Fram Ultra

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#4642846 - 01/22/18 11:49 AM Re: Heat Pump / Air handler replacement [Re: WyrTwister]
jonnied1 Offline


Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 127
Loc: WV
Originally Posted By: WyrTwister
If the present system does not do an adequate job of cooling , make sure it is fully charged , coils are clean , filter is clean , duct work is OK and free flowing .

If you find no discrepancies , get a professional to what size you need for both heat & cool . Your system may be under sized .

Also , consider Mini Split heat pumps ?

It is a healthy system. Serviced every year. Thanks.

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#4642848 - 01/22/18 11:52 AM Re: Heat Pump / Air handler replacement [Re: Nick1994]
jonnied1 Offline


Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 127
Loc: WV
Originally Posted By: Nick1994
Any way to check the duct work? My mom's house couldn't keep cool to save it's life all summer until I found a broken flexible duct and fixed it, the house was incredibly cooler afterwards.

The duct work is metal, good condition, well sealed, and well insulated.
Thanks

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#4642855 - 01/22/18 12:00 PM Re: Heat Pump / Air handler replacement [Re: InhalingBullets]
jonnied1 Offline


Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 127
Loc: WV
Originally Posted By: InhalingBullets
How many sq footage is your house/ and what kind of insulation do you have if any? I have family in the HVAC business here in TX and they usually recommend for people to go a 1/2 ton larger unit if it is a heat pump. The new 2.5 ton AC may keep up fine but the Heat Pump my be overworked. We have a 2.5 ton and a 4 ton unit on our home that we are replacing in a a few weeks. We are stepping up the 4 ton to a 4.5 ton and the 2.5 to a 3 ton with heat pumps instead of the heat strips we currently have. We have no issues cooling the home with the current set up but the heat is lacking and expensive. Our heat bills are usually a hundred bucks more a month than A/C...in Texas no less!

My house is 1500 sq. ft. single floor.
All fiberglass insulation with no options to upgrade insulation. It has double pane windows.
I'm looking for cost savings through a more effective heat pump. Electric bills really jump once the heating elements kick in during really cold weather. That is why I was asking about a higher SEER rated heat pump.
Thanks

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#4642861 - 01/22/18 12:06 PM Re: Heat Pump / Air handler replacement [Re: jonnied1]
callbay Offline


Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 814
Loc: Ozark Mountains
Most of the heat pump systems I see have a way to small return air system for the size of the unit. One of our heat pumps is a five ton. We doubled the size of the return air system and the unit now heats and cools way better than it did before.

A friend of mine had an extremely noisy heat pump unit is his lower level. Hard to hold a conversation anywhere close to the unit. The noise was caused by too small a return air duct and filter. He went with a much larger return duct and filter and the noise level dropped considerably.

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#4642865 - 01/22/18 12:10 PM Re: Heat Pump / Air handler replacement [Re: callbay]
jonnied1 Offline


Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 127
Loc: WV
Interesting.

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#4642881 - 01/22/18 12:27 PM Re: Heat Pump / Air handler replacement [Re: jonnied1]
greenjp Offline


Registered: 05/19/04
Posts: 1306
Loc: Germantown, MD
It's not clear what you're trying to gain here. It's undersized and therefore cannot maintain temperature in the summer, and unable to provide heat cost-effectively due to the low outdoor temps in the winter. I guess you could save some on your utility bills with a higher efficiency unit, but what's the ROI going to be if it costs you $4,000 (for example) to upgrade?

SEER has nothing to do with capacity, only efficiency. If you want it to work better in the summer it'll need to be higher capacity (assuming the ductwork can handle the CFM), and if you want it to work better in the winter it'll need to be capable of operating at 25 deg F (newer models may be able to regardless of SEER? not sure). Can you get gas and do a dual-fuel setup so you don't need the electric heat?

jeff

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#4642891 - 01/22/18 12:40 PM Re: Heat Pump / Air handler replacement [Re: jonnied1]
Reddy45 Offline


Registered: 08/15/08
Posts: 2973
Loc: USA
2.5 ton for 1500 sq ft is a smidge under the 'rule of thumb' for cooling but might still work OK if you can air seal all penetrations, tint all west/south facing windows, bump up the attic insulation, and ensure the system is charged correctly (in addition to sized properly between return/supply ducts).

So both paths cost money, but if you're good at DIY stuff then it'll just cost you time and sweat to increase the home's efficiency.

Most people just buy a slightly oversized system to make up for shoddy construction which also nets extra profit for the HVAC installer.

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#4642900 - 01/22/18 12:45 PM Re: Heat Pump / Air handler replacement [Re: greenjp]
jonnied1 Offline


Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 127
Loc: WV
Originally Posted By: greenjp
It's not clear what you're trying to gain here. It's undersized and therefore cannot maintain temperature in the summer, and unable to provide heat cost-effectively due to the low outdoor temps in the winter. I guess you could save some on your utility bills with a higher efficiency unit, but what's the ROI going to be if it costs you $4,000 (for example) to upgrade?

SEER has nothing to do with capacity, only efficiency. If you want it to work better in the summer it'll need to be higher capacity (assuming the ductwork can handle the CFM), and if you want it to work better in the winter it'll need to be capable of operating at 25 deg F (newer models may be able to regardless of SEER? not sure). Can you get gas and do a dual-fuel setup so you don't need the electric heat?

jeff

Thanks Jeff,
My summer bills are not bad at all. It's the winter heating bills that I am trying to reduce due to the electric heating elements being used when the temp. drops to extremes.
I have read that a higher SEER heat pump is more effective to much lower temperatures than my current one.
Gas is not an option where I live due to the distance to the nearest gas supply. Rural setting.

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#4642912 - 01/22/18 12:54 PM Re: Heat Pump / Air handler replacement [Re: jonnied1]
oldoak2000 Offline


Registered: 07/23/14
Posts: 119
Loc: North TEXAS
Originally Posted By: jonnied1
My present system is a Lennox.
12hpb30-6p
2 1/2 ton
12 SEER
30,000BTU
2002 Mfg. date
208/230v single phase

My question is what kind of energy savings can I expect by replacing the units with a new more efficient, say a 19 SEER, multi or variable speed heat pump and air handler.

I am not looking to go to a larger heat pump.
The 12 SEER system just cannot provide the heat required when the outside temps drop below around 25 deg. F.
At this point the electric elements will come on in the air handler to maintain set temp in the house.
It also fails to keep the house cool in the summer when the outside air temp is in the 90's. Inside temp will not get below about 78 deg.
The system is serviced every year and operating properly within it's design range.
Additional insulation is not an option in my homes construction.
Any info would be appreciated.
Thanks


I guess nobody read the info; your 12hpb30-6p is an ANCIENT (circa 2004) R22 design!!

You will be VERY pleased with the performance of a modern R410 (16, 18, or 19 seer) system - COP's for heating 2+ down to 5 degrees (and up to 5cop @ 40degrees), and even better with the variable-speed drives; very quiet on startup, and nearly silent on 1st stage, and ultra efficient.

PUT IN A 3 TON SYSTEM if going with a 19 seer 2-stage; you'll get the efficiency AND extra capacity for extremes when needed.
A 3 ton 19 seer system can put out 10,000 BTU MORE at 25 degrees than your old 12seerR22 system AND AT HALF the electricity usage!!

my new r410 16 seer heat-pump kept house nicely warm at 8degrees outside last week (only using AUX for few minutes of defrost per 90 minutes)!

you'll probably see 30% to 50% lower electric usage . . .!

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#4642918 - 01/22/18 01:02 PM Re: Heat Pump / Air handler replacement [Re: Reddy45]
jonnied1 Offline


Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 127
Loc: WV
Originally Posted By: Reddy45
2.5 ton for 1500 sq ft is a smidge under the 'rule of thumb' for cooling but might still work OK if you can air seal all penetrations, tint all west/south facing windows, bump up the attic insulation, and ensure the system is charged correctly (in addition to sized properly between return/supply ducts).

So both paths cost money, but if you're good at DIY stuff then it'll just cost you time and sweat to increase the home's efficiency.

Most people just buy a slightly oversized system to make up for shoddy construction which also nets extra profit for the HVAC installer.

I agree with your comment about the size of the unit.
As far as the house DIY stuff, I've already pushed all of the energy saving measures about as far as possible.
Looking at the aspect of up-sizing the system, I have not ruled that out. Remember this system was installed 16 years ago in 2002. It is getting about time for an upgrade. wink
My question is if the multi-speed, variable-speed, more efficient systems actually save money on energy costs over a standard run of the mill system.

Top
#4642926 - 01/22/18 01:06 PM Re: Heat Pump / Air handler replacement [Re: oldoak2000]
jonnied1 Offline


Registered: 10/16/16
Posts: 127
Loc: WV
Originally Posted By: oldoak2000
Originally Posted By: jonnied1
My present system is a Lennox.
12hpb30-6p
2 1/2 ton
12 SEER
30,000BTU
2002 Mfg. date
208/230v single phase

My question is what kind of energy savings can I expect by replacing the units with a new more efficient, say a 19 SEER, multi or variable speed heat pump and air handler.

I am not looking to go to a larger heat pump.
The 12 SEER system just cannot provide the heat required when the outside temps drop below around 25 deg. F.
At this point the electric elements will come on in the air handler to maintain set temp in the house.
It also fails to keep the house cool in the summer when the outside air temp is in the 90's. Inside temp will not get below about 78 deg.
The system is serviced every year and operating properly within it's design range.
Additional insulation is not an option in my homes construction.
Any info would be appreciated.
Thanks


I guess nobody read the info; your 12hpb30-6p is an ANCIENT (circa 2004) R22 design!!

You will be VERY pleased with the performance of a modern R410 (16, 18, or 19 seer) system - COP's for heating 2+ down to 5 degrees (and up to 5cop @ 40degrees), and even better with the variable-speed drives; very quiet on startup, and nearly silent on 1st stage, and ultra efficient.

my new r410 16 seer heat-pump kept house nicely warm at 8degrees outside last week (only using AUX for few minutes of defrost per 90 minutes)!

you'll probably see 30% to 50% lower electric usage . . .!


Thanks, that is the kind of information I'm looking for.
I know the salesman that comes to quote an installation is going to give you all kind of promises about energy savings.
Kind of like going shopping for a new car.

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