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Manual transmissions and shifting to 1st gear fr N #4642750
01/22/18 10:26 AM
01/22/18 10:26 AM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 209
Carolinas
whizbyu Offline OP
whizbyu  Offline OP
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 209
Carolinas
For the longest time, I've felt that from NEUTRAL, it is easier to shift to 1st gear by first going into 2nd gear then shifting down to 1. There isn't any trouble getting into 1st gear from Neutral, but I just perceive it to be easier. Am I a snowflake?
Any mechanical engineers know anything about this? Tried searching it but cannot find the right key words.

Re: Manual transmissions and shifting to 1st gear fr N [Re: whizbyu] #4642753
01/22/18 10:29 AM
01/22/18 10:29 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 33,551
ME
eljefino Offline
eljefino  Offline
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 33,551
ME
It's the synchronizers that help you out. You'd also enjoy luck if you blipped the throttle with the clutch out in neutral then went for 1st.

Re: Manual transmissions and shifting to 1st gear fr N [Re: whizbyu] #4642760
01/22/18 10:34 AM
01/22/18 10:34 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 36,591
Great Lakes
Quattro Pete Offline
Quattro Pete  Offline
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 36,591
Great Lakes
Originally Posted By: whizbyu
There isn't any trouble getting into 1st gear from Neutral, but I just perceive it to be easier.

What is easier about it?

Personally, I've always gone from N to 1st in all my past and current cars. Never needed to go into 2nd first.


'02 530i (Edge 0W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T (Edge 5W-40)
'18 Charger SRT (PUP 0W-40 SRT)
Re: Manual transmissions and shifting to 1st gear fr N [Re: whizbyu] #4642764
01/22/18 10:37 AM
01/22/18 10:37 AM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,060
Ruidoso, NM USA
ammolab Offline
ammolab  Offline
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,060
Ruidoso, NM USA
In neutral with the clutch engaged you have gears moving on the input shaft of the transmission. Shifting into second will halt movement and allow the easier push into first gear.

First and second are large heavy gears with a lot of rotational inertia. Their syncros have the hardest jobs. Second gear syncro always goes "weak" first on my high mileage cars or gets reluctant on cold mornings when the tranny lube is thick.

Last edited by ammolab; 01/22/18 10:38 AM.

2009 Honda CR-V
2011 BMW R1200R
2005 Kaw Ninja 250
1994 Jeep Wrangler 2.5L
2016 Chevy SS Sport Sedan
Re: Manual transmissions and shifting to 1st gear fr N [Re: eljefino] #4642765
01/22/18 10:39 AM
01/22/18 10:39 AM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,060
Ruidoso, NM USA
ammolab Offline
ammolab  Offline
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,060
Ruidoso, NM USA
Originally Posted By: eljefino
It's the synchronizers that help you out. You'd also enjoy luck if you blipped the throttle with the clutch out in neutral then went for 1st.


Good if the car is moving when you shift into first (double clutch) counterproductive if the car is NOT moving.


2009 Honda CR-V
2011 BMW R1200R
2005 Kaw Ninja 250
1994 Jeep Wrangler 2.5L
2016 Chevy SS Sport Sedan
Re: Manual transmissions and shifting to 1st gear fr N [Re: whizbyu] #4642804
01/22/18 11:09 AM
01/22/18 11:09 AM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,360
San Antonio, TX
E150GT Offline
E150GT  Offline
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,360
San Antonio, TX
Hmmm. Have to think about this. Sometimes in my car I have to move the car forward or backward a bit to get it into first if I am sitting still. Otherwise I dont believe ive ever had an issue unless its cold. On my truck sometimes I find it easier to stick it into 2nd and then into first if it wont do first right away.


1984 Mercedes-Benz 300SD - 100k
1995 F150 XL 4.9 reg cab 5MT - 251k 5w30
2016 Mazda6 Touring 6MT - 57k 10w30
2006 Buick Lucerne CXL 3.8 31k 5w30
Re: Manual transmissions and shifting to 1st gear fr N [Re: whizbyu] #4642817
01/22/18 11:19 AM
01/22/18 11:19 AM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 12,283
N.H, U.S.A.
ARCOgraphite Offline
ARCOgraphite  Offline
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 12,283
N.H, U.S.A.
On a fully synchro trans, Gears are always meshed and not "moved' or "shifted" in position per se, you are just locking the selected gear to the mainshaft with a dog collar. Sometimes they are nose to nose, if the dogs are running slow you will slip the collar over without going nose to nose that would block the lock. When I reverse I go clutch out in N, clutch IN, then select after maybe 1.5 sec.


2014 Nissan Rogue S CVT, OC#10 47272mi-QSUD10W30+5w20 Toughguard Filter; '17 Subaru Crosstrek CVT OC#2 ?? mi-SOA/Idemitsu 0w20 + SOA Filter
Re: Manual transmissions and shifting to 1st gear fr N [Re: whizbyu] #4642840
01/22/18 11:41 AM
01/22/18 11:41 AM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,142
Ohio
Dave Sherman Offline
Dave Sherman  Offline
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,142
Ohio
Some truth to that; some older cars didn't have a synchronized first gear, like my dad's 1947 Lincoln. It will grind a little if you don't shift into second to stop the gears if you've been sitting in neutral with the clutch out. My MG occasionally gets balky going into first, which seems to correct itself if I go into third first, but that feels more like the linkage is just quirky than having bad synchros.


2015 Honda Pilot EX AWD Valvoline 0W-20 Bosch filter
1977 MG Midget Valvoline VR-1 20W-50 Bosch Filter
Re: Manual transmissions and shifting to 1st gear fr N [Re: whizbyu] #4642945
01/22/18 01:24 PM
01/22/18 01:24 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,698
Southeast
meep Offline
meep  Offline
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,698
Southeast
could try pressing the clutch 2-3 seconds earlier to see if that gives more time for the gears to spin down before asking the syncros to do that.

Sometimes grabbing another gear first can slightly rotate the gear assy as the dogs insert, which could also aid the 1st gear insertion.

-m


2018 F150
2015 crv (wifey!)
Re: Manual transmissions and shifting to 1st gear fr N [Re: Dave Sherman] #4642961
01/22/18 01:32 PM
01/22/18 01:32 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,891
New Zealand
Silk Online content
Silk  Online Content
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,891
New Zealand
Originally Posted By: Dave Sherman
My MG occasionally gets balky going into first,


BMC used to call them baulk rings. Actually pretty common to be harder to get into 1st, and 2nd to 1st being the way to get there. The other gears are changed at speed, 1st is only engaged at rest or very low speed, so is always far less worn than the other gears. Much worse with a dragging clutch - the old BMC Mini/1100 was prone to oil on the clutch, they became very hard to get into 1st, so into 2nd, and a quick slam into 1st.


1987 BMW R65 - Aegis SAE30
2005 Nissan Expert - Gulf Western 10W-40
1996 Volvo T5 - Penrite HPR15 - 15W-60. Ryco syntec filter.
Re: Manual transmissions and shifting to 1st gear fr N [Re: whizbyu] #4642962
01/22/18 01:32 PM
01/22/18 01:32 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 363
OR, USA
bsmithwins Offline
bsmithwins  Offline
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 363
OR, USA
Iíve never had a problem shifting into 1st gear in any car Iíve owned, which have been mostly various Japanese makes.

I have had to bump cars slightly forward in 1st to be able shift into reverse, but that gear typically doesnít have synchromesh.

BSW

Re: Manual transmissions and shifting to 1st gear fr N [Re: whizbyu] #4642970
01/22/18 01:39 PM
01/22/18 01:39 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,806
Texas
440Magnum Offline
440Magnum  Offline
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 8,806
Texas
Originally Posted By: whizbyu
For the longest time, I've felt that from NEUTRAL, it is easier to shift to 1st gear by first going into 2nd gear then shifting down to 1. There isn't any trouble getting into 1st gear from Neutral, but I just perceive it to be easier. Am I a snowflake?
Any mechanical engineers know anything about this? Tried searching it but cannot find the right key words.


Type of car? Rolling to a stop or already stopped?

If its rolling to a stop, then the explanation is simple... the 2nd gear synchros spin the clutch disk up part of the way, so its already spinning pretty fast when you try to push into first. Pushing straight into first at any sort of road speed means the first gear synchro gets a real pounding trying to spin the clutch up to high RPM.

If its sitting at a stop the synchros have to do the opposite, spin the clutch disk down to a stop before you can get the lever into gear, and both the 1st and 2nd synchros do exactly the same delta-RPM. It could just be that the first gear synchro is a little worn. My daughter's Jeep XJ has done that since back when I drove it 7-8 years ago. It never gnashes into first, but the lever is harder to push into first than into second.


'66 Dodge Polara & '69 Dodge Coronet R/T both 440/727
'08 Ram 1500 4.7/545RFE
'12 Challenger SRT8 392/6-speed
'99 XJ 4x4 4.0/AX15, '14 WK2 4x4 3.6/8HP
Re: Manual transmissions and shifting to 1st gear fr N [Re: ammolab] #4642987
01/22/18 01:48 PM
01/22/18 01:48 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,554
Toronto
PeterPolyol Offline
PeterPolyol  Offline
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,554
Toronto
Originally Posted By: ammolab
In neutral with the clutch engaged you have gears moving on the input shaft of the transmission. Shifting into second will halt movement and allow the easier push into first gear.

thumbsup


Scambling for solutions is a hopelessly futile endeavour and potentially dangerous, without first coming to a solid, personal understanding of the problem. Beware riding the ideological hobby horse.
Re: Manual transmissions and shifting to 1st gear fr N [Re: whizbyu] #4643092
01/22/18 03:20 PM
01/22/18 03:20 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 12,638
The Motor City
Kestas Offline
Kestas  Offline
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 12,638
The Motor City
From the time you press the clutch in to the time the input shaft stops spinning is 3 to 5 seconds. This is an industry standard. It is tested by the presence of gear clash when shifting into (unsynchronized) reverse. Any sooner or longer indicates a transmission that is too tight or too loose.

Your shifting into second stops the transmission from spinning. You probably could have achieved the same thing by waiting a bit longer shifting from neutral to first.

I always put an even amount of pressure with the shifter and wait just a fraction of a second before the shifter is accepted into first. This allows the parts to spool down for shifting. People that try to slam it into first will quickly ruin the synchronizers for first gear.

Re: Manual transmissions and shifting to 1st gear fr N [Re: whizbyu] #4643101
01/22/18 03:23 PM
01/22/18 03:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 421
hawthorne, Ca.
46Harry Offline
46Harry  Offline
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 421
hawthorne, Ca.
When I owned cars that had 3 speed transmissions I always pushed the shifter toward 2nd gear to stop things from turning inside of the transmission. It kept the transmission from grinding 1st gear. The only car that I own now has an old Borg Warner T10 4 speed and it has synchro on first gear so I don't need to use second gear like on the old three on the tree.

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