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#4642750 - 01/22/18 10:26 AM Manual transmissions and shifting to 1st gear fr N
whizbyu Offline


Registered: 12/19/12
Posts: 207
Loc: Carolinas
For the longest time, I've felt that from NEUTRAL, it is easier to shift to 1st gear by first going into 2nd gear then shifting down to 1. There isn't any trouble getting into 1st gear from Neutral, but I just perceive it to be easier. Am I a snowflake?
Any mechanical engineers know anything about this? Tried searching it but cannot find the right key words.

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#4642753 - 01/22/18 10:29 AM Re: Manual transmissions and shifting to 1st gear fr N [Re: whizbyu]
eljefino Offline


Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 32770
Loc: ME
It's the synchronizers that help you out. You'd also enjoy luck if you blipped the throttle with the clutch out in neutral then went for 1st.

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#4642760 - 01/22/18 10:34 AM Re: Manual transmissions and shifting to 1st gear fr N [Re: whizbyu]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 35962
Loc: Great Lakes
Originally Posted By: whizbyu
There isn't any trouble getting into 1st gear from Neutral, but I just perceive it to be easier.

What is easier about it?

Personally, I've always gone from N to 1st in all my past and current cars. Never needed to go into 2nd first.
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#4642764 - 01/22/18 10:37 AM Re: Manual transmissions and shifting to 1st gear fr N [Re: whizbyu]
ammolab Offline


Registered: 01/16/06
Posts: 1002
Loc: Ruidoso, NM USA
In neutral with the clutch engaged you have gears moving on the input shaft of the transmission. Shifting into second will halt movement and allow the easier push into first gear.

First and second are large heavy gears with a lot of rotational inertia. Their syncros have the hardest jobs. Second gear syncro always goes "weak" first on my high mileage cars or gets reluctant on cold mornings when the tranny lube is thick.


Edited by ammolab (01/22/18 10:38 AM)
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#4642765 - 01/22/18 10:39 AM Re: Manual transmissions and shifting to 1st gear fr N [Re: eljefino]
ammolab Offline


Registered: 01/16/06
Posts: 1002
Loc: Ruidoso, NM USA
Originally Posted By: eljefino
It's the synchronizers that help you out. You'd also enjoy luck if you blipped the throttle with the clutch out in neutral then went for 1st.


Good if the car is moving when you shift into first (double clutch) counterproductive if the car is NOT moving.
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#4642804 - 01/22/18 11:09 AM Re: Manual transmissions and shifting to 1st gear fr N [Re: whizbyu]
E150GT Offline


Registered: 03/11/12
Posts: 1151
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Hmmm. Have to think about this. Sometimes in my car I have to move the car forward or backward a bit to get it into first if I am sitting still. Otherwise I dont believe ive ever had an issue unless its cold. On my truck sometimes I find it easier to stick it into 2nd and then into first if it wont do first right away.
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#4642817 - 01/22/18 11:19 AM Re: Manual transmissions and shifting to 1st gear fr N [Re: whizbyu]
ARCOgraphite Offline


Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 12018
Loc: N.H, U.S.A.
On a fully synchro trans, Gears are always meshed and not "moved' or "shifted" in position per se, you are just locking the selected gear to the mainshaft with a dog collar. Sometimes they are nose to nose, if the dogs are running slow you will slip the collar over without going nose to nose that would block the lock. When I reverse I go clutch out in N, clutch IN, then select after maybe 1.5 sec.
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#4642840 - 01/22/18 11:41 AM Re: Manual transmissions and shifting to 1st gear fr N [Re: whizbyu]
Dave Sherman Offline


Registered: 01/03/06
Posts: 1082
Loc: Ohio
Some truth to that; some older cars didn't have a synchronized first gear, like my dad's 1947 Lincoln. It will grind a little if you don't shift into second to stop the gears if you've been sitting in neutral with the clutch out. My MG occasionally gets balky going into first, which seems to correct itself if I go into third first, but that feels more like the linkage is just quirky than having bad synchros.
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#4642945 - 01/22/18 01:24 PM Re: Manual transmissions and shifting to 1st gear fr N [Re: whizbyu]
meep Offline


Registered: 02/20/07
Posts: 3569
Loc: Southeast
could try pressing the clutch 2-3 seconds earlier to see if that gives more time for the gears to spin down before asking the syncros to do that.

Sometimes grabbing another gear first can slightly rotate the gear assy as the dogs insert, which could also aid the 1st gear insertion.

-m
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#4642961 - 01/22/18 01:32 PM Re: Manual transmissions and shifting to 1st gear fr N [Re: Dave Sherman]
Silk Online   content


Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 4609
Loc: New Zealand
Originally Posted By: Dave Sherman
My MG occasionally gets balky going into first,


BMC used to call them baulk rings. Actually pretty common to be harder to get into 1st, and 2nd to 1st being the way to get there. The other gears are changed at speed, 1st is only engaged at rest or very low speed, so is always far less worn than the other gears. Much worse with a dragging clutch - the old BMC Mini/1100 was prone to oil on the clutch, they became very hard to get into 1st, so into 2nd, and a quick slam into 1st.
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#4642962 - 01/22/18 01:32 PM Re: Manual transmissions and shifting to 1st gear fr N [Re: whizbyu]
bsmithwins Offline


Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 363
Loc: OR, USA
Iíve never had a problem shifting into 1st gear in any car Iíve owned, which have been mostly various Japanese makes.

I have had to bump cars slightly forward in 1st to be able shift into reverse, but that gear typically doesnít have synchromesh.

BSW

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#4642970 - 01/22/18 01:39 PM Re: Manual transmissions and shifting to 1st gear fr N [Re: whizbyu]
440Magnum Offline


Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 8756
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: whizbyu
For the longest time, I've felt that from NEUTRAL, it is easier to shift to 1st gear by first going into 2nd gear then shifting down to 1. There isn't any trouble getting into 1st gear from Neutral, but I just perceive it to be easier. Am I a snowflake?
Any mechanical engineers know anything about this? Tried searching it but cannot find the right key words.


Type of car? Rolling to a stop or already stopped?

If its rolling to a stop, then the explanation is simple... the 2nd gear synchros spin the clutch disk up part of the way, so its already spinning pretty fast when you try to push into first. Pushing straight into first at any sort of road speed means the first gear synchro gets a real pounding trying to spin the clutch up to high RPM.

If its sitting at a stop the synchros have to do the opposite, spin the clutch disk down to a stop before you can get the lever into gear, and both the 1st and 2nd synchros do exactly the same delta-RPM. It could just be that the first gear synchro is a little worn. My daughter's Jeep XJ has done that since back when I drove it 7-8 years ago. It never gnashes into first, but the lever is harder to push into first than into second.
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#4642987 - 01/22/18 01:48 PM Re: Manual transmissions and shifting to 1st gear fr N [Re: ammolab]
PeterPolyol Offline


Registered: 03/06/16
Posts: 1351
Loc: toronto
Originally Posted By: ammolab
In neutral with the clutch engaged you have gears moving on the input shaft of the transmission. Shifting into second will halt movement and allow the easier push into first gear.

thumbsup

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#4643092 - 01/22/18 03:20 PM Re: Manual transmissions and shifting to 1st gear fr N [Re: whizbyu]
Kestas Offline



Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 12392
Loc: The Motor City
From the time you press the clutch in to the time the input shaft stops spinning is 3 to 5 seconds. This is an industry standard. It is tested by the presence of gear clash when shifting into (unsynchronized) reverse. Any sooner or longer indicates a transmission that is too tight or too loose.

Your shifting into second stops the transmission from spinning. You probably could have achieved the same thing by waiting a bit longer shifting from neutral to first.

I always put an even amount of pressure with the shifter and wait just a fraction of a second before the shifter is accepted into first. This allows the parts to spool down for shifting. People that try to slam it into first will quickly ruin the synchronizers for first gear.

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#4643101 - 01/22/18 03:23 PM Re: Manual transmissions and shifting to 1st gear fr N [Re: whizbyu]
46Harry Offline


Registered: 01/08/12
Posts: 412
Loc: hawthorne, Ca.
When I owned cars that had 3 speed transmissions I always pushed the shifter toward 2nd gear to stop things from turning inside of the transmission. It kept the transmission from grinding 1st gear. The only car that I own now has an old Borg Warner T10 4 speed and it has synchro on first gear so I don't need to use second gear like on the old three on the tree.

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