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#4641571 - 01/21/18 04:39 AM motul 7100 10w50 in turbocharged car (fiat)
nico_giraldi Offline


Registered: 04/14/16
Posts: 4
Loc: italy
Hi guys, i'm Mauro and I write from Rome, Italy.
i,ve got a fiat 1.4 liter uno tubo i.e. with 114hp stock, upgraded to 220hp...(turbo, forged internals, racing cams, water metanol injction etc)

currently i run a selenia petronas 10w60 oil. but fiat stated my car should use a 10w40 in standard form.

my oil temp rarely rises up to 110/115 degress celsius in spirited use. normally oil stay near 90/100.

my car have a problem with camshaft wear sometimes, in the last 15 years i,ve changed two camshaft, worn in only one lobe, randomly.my car has a under buckhet shims with over head cam, directly.

i would use a motorcyle oil like 7100 motul 10w50 because is plenty of AW additives that could help my aggressive cam lobe....is it safe?or i need the friction modifiers additives in car oil?
in 10w40 car oil not rated as fuel saver are there present FM additives?


sorry for my english....

Mauro

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#4641607 - 01/21/18 07:02 AM Re: motul 7100 10w50 in turbocharged car (fiat) [Re: nico_giraldi]
Cujet Offline


Registered: 02/15/03
Posts: 7162
Loc: Jupiter, Florida
As a general rule, turbocharged engines have higher overall oil temperature and significantly higher rod bearing loads. Such loads coupled with low viscosity oil , either through choice or through high temperatures, leads to wear issues.

Also, camshaft wear is often a factor of viscosity, with higher viscosity equaling lower wear. An oil with around 1200 ppm ZDDP is also helpful for engines with camshaft wear problems. But we should always remember that additives are not the first line of defense with wear related issues. Viscosity is.

I don't know if your engine is prone to camshaft wear without the modifications. If so, what do others do to prevent it?

I tried some 0W-30 oil in my heavily modified, high boost, Turbocharged MX-5 in an attempt at getting a bit more high RPM hp. The result was very rapid rod bearing wear and an engine overhaul.

I worked on turbocharged engine development in the early 1980's. Did about 150 dyno runs to help with camshaft design for Ford 2.3L engines. We quickly discovered higher viscosity oils were necessary in our Turbo 2.3 Mustangs. From that point on, I used the most robust oils I could find, which eventually lead to my love of Mobil 1, 15W-50 oil.

My current 407RWHP Honda S2000 uses M1, 15W-50 with excellent results.


Edited by Cujet (01/21/18 07:08 AM)
_________________________

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#4641744 - 01/21/18 09:45 AM Re: motul 7100 10w50 in turbocharged car (fiat) [Re: nico_giraldi]
BrocLuno Offline


Registered: 09/06/15
Posts: 5519
Loc: Kalifornia Kollective
welcome Don't worry about the english - we fubar it all the time laugh

It may not be a viscosity issue. The oil you are running seems to have plenty of viscosity. It may be oil starvation issues... Or it could be cam core issues... Or it could be cam heat treatment/nitride issues ... Have to investigate more thoroughly.

1.) so heavy/thick oils may lay to close to the bearing journals and not get splashed around as much as they need to be.

2.) Does your cam system have squirters? How do the lobes get oiled? If it has deflector plates, you might want to bend one so more oil goes to the lobes in question. If it uses spray holes, they may need to be opened up slightly for more flow, or drilled at a new angle to cover a dry'ish area ...

3.) Do you still have the old cams? Can you get the failed lobes and adjacent good ones tested for hardness?

I would not have any issues with running Motul 7100 or 300V in a 10W-50 as your oil temps do not seem to need 60 grade.

I'd also be on the look-out for foaming issues. If the crankshaft does not have a windage tray(?), you might be foaming the oil which will lead to odd oiling issues ...
_________________________
Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.

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#4641766 - 01/21/18 10:03 AM Re: motul 7100 10w50 in turbocharged car (fiat) [Re: nico_giraldi]
BrocLuno Offline


Registered: 09/06/15
Posts: 5519
Loc: Kalifornia Kollective
And then one of our members just posted this: Cam Wear

So your engine is boosted with a lot to cylinder pressure. That means a lot of blow-by and consequently, lots of combustion by-products leading to nitric acid build-up. So maybe back the oil down to say an HDEO 15W-40 or similar and change it much more often. Short changes to get rid of fuel dilution and acid build-up.
_________________________
Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.

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#4641825 - 01/21/18 11:12 AM Re: motul 7100 10w50 in turbocharged car (fiat) [Re: nico_giraldi]
Linctex Offline


Registered: 12/31/16
Posts: 6148
Loc: Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: nico_giraldi
my car have a problem a with camshaft wear sometimes, in the last 15 years i,ve changed two camshaft, worn in only one lobe, randomly.my car has a under buckhet shims with over head cam, directly.


Weird....
these are traditionally known for NOT having problems, because the valve is directly activated, the pressure on the cam lobe is low. I think it is a metallurgical issue.


Strano ....
questi sono tradizionalmente noti per NON avere problemi, perché la valvola è attivata direttamente, la pressione sul lobo della camma è bassa. Penso che sia un problema metallurgico.
_________________________
"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."

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#4641869 - 01/21/18 11:54 AM Re: motul 7100 10w50 in turbocharged car (fiat) [Re: Cujet]
nico_giraldi Offline


Registered: 04/14/16
Posts: 4
Loc: italy
Originally Posted By: Cujet
As a general rule, turbocharged engines have higher overall oil temperature and significantly higher rod bearing loads. Such loads coupled with low viscosity oil , either through choice or through high temperatures, leads to wear issues.

Also, camshaft wear is often a factor of viscosity, with higher viscosity equaling lower wear. An oil with around 1200 ppm ZDDP is also helpful for engines with camshaft wear problems. But we should always remember that additives are not the first line of defense with wear related issues. Viscosity is.

I don't know if your engine is prone to camshaft wear without the modifications. If so, what do others do to prevent it?

I tried some 0W-30 oil in my heavily modified, high boost, Turbocharged MX-5 in an attempt at getting a bit more high RPM hp. The result was very rapid rod bearing wear and an engine overhaul.

I worked on turbocharged engine development in the early 1980's. Did about 150 dyno runs to help with camshaft design for Ford 2.3L engines. We quickly discovered higher viscosity oils were necessary in our Turbo 2.3 Mustangs. From that point on, I used the most robust oils I could find, which eventually lead to my love of Mobil 1, 15W-50 oil.

My current 407RWHP Honda S2000 uses M1, 15W-50 with excellent results.

Thank you, as you 've said a heavily turbocharged engine like an High viscosity oil....bit i'm afraid 10w60 is a Little bit excessive with my oil temp.
I think 10w50 is a suitable choice but in this viscosity i ve found only motul 7100 bike oil. Is It safe or do i need the friction modifier additives of car oil?
Do A car oil in the 10w40 or 10w50 type, has Friction modifier additives even if its not rated Energy conserving?


P.s. i'm in the right forum man!

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#4641899 - 01/21/18 12:41 PM Re: motul 7100 10w50 in turbocharged car (fiat) [Re: nico_giraldi]
Linctex Offline


Registered: 12/31/16
Posts: 6148
Loc: Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: nico_giraldi
A car oil in the 10w40 or 10w50 type, has Friction modifier additives even if its not rated Energy conserving?


Friction modifiers are only added to affect the "grab" of clutch disc material, they do not have a negative impact on surfaces that are metal-to-metal wear, like the cam lobes.

I modificatori di attrito vengono aggiunti solo per influenzare la "presa" del materiale del disco della frizione, non hanno un impatto negativo sulle superfici che sono usura da metallo a metallo, come i lobi delle camme.
_________________________
"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."

Top
#4641941 - 01/21/18 01:29 PM Re: motul 7100 10w50 in turbocharged car (fiat) [Re: Linctex]
nico_giraldi Offline


Registered: 04/14/16
Posts: 4
Loc: italy
ok, but...i've read on this forum about the main difference between car oil and bike oil is the presence in car oil of additives called friction modified. not included in bike oil.

i would use 10w50 jaso ma oil in my car.

the friction modifier additives are only in "energy conserving" rated car oil or in ALL car oil, even in the classic 10w40?

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#4642027 - 01/21/18 03:13 PM Re: motul 7100 10w50 in turbocharged car (fiat) [Re: nico_giraldi]
Cujet Offline


Registered: 02/15/03
Posts: 7162
Loc: Jupiter, Florida
As a general rule, synthetic motorcycle oils are excellent choices for turbocharged race engines.
_________________________

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#4642035 - 01/21/18 03:24 PM Re: motul 7100 10w50 in turbocharged car (fiat) [Re: nico_giraldi]
SR5 Offline


Registered: 07/07/15
Posts: 4468
Loc: Down Under
Welcome friend,

To me you need ZDDP (zinc) as this is an anti-wear agent that protects the metal surfaces. Yes motorcycle oils typically have lots of zinc.

Friction Modifiers (FM) to me are not anti-wear agents, but rather reduce internal friction to make the engine smoother and maybe return a little better fuel economy. To me FM are completely optional and not essential. I have often had both cars and motorcycles, and I would select oils that were high viscosity, high ZDDP but FM free and then run this oil in everything. No problems.
_________________________
Penrite Vantage 10W40 SN & A3/B4 + Wesfil-Cooper Z154

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#4642069 - 01/21/18 03:51 PM Re: motul 7100 10w50 in turbocharged car (fiat) [Re: nico_giraldi]
nico_giraldi Offline


Registered: 04/14/16
Posts: 4
Loc: italy
Thank you ALL guys, now i've a clear idea of the topic.
I'm gonna use motul 7100 10w50 in my Fiat uno turbo i.e.
It is api sn and jaso ma2 rated.
Has a tbn of 7.5

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