Recent Topics
Best recommendation for Honda 10w30 trans
by Pepsibottle1
06/25/18 01:55 PM
Mills Fleet Farm Roadrunner batteries - who makes?
by volk06
06/25/18 01:09 PM
Honda ATF DW1 bottle stamp decoding
by parshisa
06/25/18 12:03 PM
How to lower throttle sensitivity?
by NICAT
06/25/18 11:41 AM
That's some service! (New Central AC...)
by xBa380
06/25/18 11:13 AM
Valvoline 2 Cycle TC-W3 Marine Oil - 6qt - $20
by Jimzz
06/25/18 10:45 AM
Plumbing/Bldg Experts: Cause of Wet Slab?
by LoneRanger
06/25/18 10:13 AM
How to CONFIRM the Country of Manufacture
by Ed_Flecko
06/25/18 09:58 AM
Replacing trans oil seal
by redhat
06/25/18 09:50 AM
VW diesels sitting in huge lots waiting......
by ZZman
06/25/18 09:09 AM
DTD/DT Independence Day Promos
by Sayjac
06/25/18 08:39 AM
It's AMSOILŪ, not Amsoil
by Rat407
06/25/18 06:39 AM
VW Passat 2007
by madRiver
06/25/18 06:18 AM
Review: CVJ Remanufactured CV Axles
by The Critic
06/25/18 03:40 AM
Towing without 85w140?
by OilFilters
06/25/18 03:07 AM
2015 VW GTI autobahn oil questions
by Skyalbo
06/24/18 11:28 PM
Corrosion in the garage - salt or humidity?
by Kurtatron
06/24/18 11:13 PM
Darn dogs
by AZjeff
06/24/18 10:21 PM
New GC?
by Bullwinkle007
06/24/18 10:04 PM
The guy with the plexiglass head on you tube
by andyd
06/24/18 09:21 PM
Newest Members
dhy808, ROD_Z, lozpxs, danthemanx07, FunktasticLucky
65319 Registered Users
Who's Online
94 registered (853okg, AndyB, 4WD, badtlc, 87sammy, aquariuscsm, 11 invisible), 1694 Guests and 36 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
65319 Members
67 Forums
285971 Topics
4772301 Posts

Max Online: 3590 @ 01/24/17 08:07 PM
Donate to BITOG
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#4640285 - 01/19/18 05:45 PM 1986 FBI Miami Shootout
bigj_16 Offline


Registered: 07/03/17
Posts: 1271
Loc: Douglas County, Colorado
I referenced this shootout a little while ago in another thread. I was just reading the account on Wikipedia again today, and it really struck me again, as I had not read it in a while. This shootout had a huge impact on law enforcement, among others. If you have not read it in a while (or at all), read it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

This is the 8 minute shootout scene from the movie, which by all accounts was pretty accurate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBGfKtuo2AM


Edited by bigj_16 (01/19/18 05:58 PM)

Top
#4640292 - 01/19/18 05:52 PM Re: 1986 FBI Miami Shootout [Re: bigj_16]
EdwardC Offline


Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 1866
Loc: Chicago, IL
I first read about that shootout when researching the 10mm round. Pretty incredible all the changes that stemmed from that event, like the creation of the now ubiquitous 40 S&W, among many other things.

Top
#4640300 - 01/19/18 06:02 PM Re: 1986 FBI Miami Shootout [Re: bigj_16]
PimTac Offline


Registered: 03/04/17
Posts: 4346
Loc: Soviet State of Washington
Yep, it usually takes an event to make change. This story is from my hometown. The Tacoma Hilltop was one of the worse neighborhoods in the country then. I worked near there. It was a war zone on weekends.

http://wethearmed.com/strategy-and-tactics/us-army-rangers-vs-drug-dealers-tacoma-wa-1989/
_________________________
2017 Mazda CX-5 Grand Touring

Valvoline Advanced Synthetic 0w20
Mobil 1 M108A EP filter


Top
#4640301 - 01/19/18 06:02 PM Re: 1986 FBI Miami Shootout [Re: bigj_16]
billt460 Offline


Registered: 03/30/15
Posts: 4417
Loc: Glendale, Arizona
I think the biggest mistake the FBI made in this thing was not involving weaponry. They chased 2 heavily armed suspects they knew liked to shoot, into a residential area, and engaged them. They had air surveillance on the car. They could have pulled back, but didn't. This is like a lot of southern California car chases you see on the news. It starts out by a guy speeding or running a red light. They end up with 5 news helicopters following the guy. Yet they still chase them until there is a big crash and someone gets severely injured or killed. Weapon calibers were not the only thing the FBI changed after that incident.

Top
#4640304 - 01/19/18 06:07 PM Re: 1986 FBI Miami Shootout [Re: bigj_16]
bigj_16 Offline


Registered: 07/03/17
Posts: 1271
Loc: Douglas County, Colorado
It really is a dyslexic account, incompetence on one hand, incredible bravery on the other.

Top
#4640313 - 01/19/18 06:14 PM Re: 1986 FBI Miami Shootout [Re: bigj_16]
wymi516 Online   content


Registered: 11/15/08
Posts: 427
Loc: Illinois
_________________________
2016 KIA Forte SX 1.6L T-GDI Daughter
2013 Chevy Impala LT 3.6L GDI Mine
2014 Chrysler 200S 3.6L PFI Wife

Top
#4640344 - 01/19/18 06:43 PM Re: 1986 FBI Miami Shootout [Re: wymi516]
bigj_16 Offline


Registered: 07/03/17
Posts: 1271
Loc: Douglas County, Colorado
Originally Posted By: wymi516


Good video.

Top
#4640372 - 01/19/18 07:11 PM Re: 1986 FBI Miami Shootout [Re: bigj_16]
MuzzleFlash40 Offline


Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 1162
Loc: SE Ohio
They still talk about this in the academy along with the Newhall massacre. It had little to do with caliber as much as bullet design. They were using antiquated "fbi lead loads" which had very poor reliability with expansion. They suffered non-survivable wounds, even if a .45 had gone through the same channel the result would've been the same.

We learned a lot from these type of incidents, but we still have a long way to go. Unfortunately it takes things like this for the brass and "decision makers" to see it.
_________________________
18 Sonata SEL 2.4-7k
HK Syn 5w30 & OEM
16 Santa Fe Sport AWD 2.4-60k
Cam2 SynBlend 5w30 & OEM
09 Silverado LT 4x4 4.8-100k
Castrol GTX HM 5w30 & Fram




Top
#4640420 - 01/19/18 07:48 PM Re: 1986 FBI Miami Shootout [Re: MuzzleFlash40]
JohnnyJohnson Online   content


Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2776
Loc: Wet side WA
Originally Posted By: MuzzleFlash40

We learned a lot from these type of incidents, but we still have a long way to go. Unfortunately it takes things like this for the brass and "decision makers" to see it.


We did? What do we arm women and people that can't deal with recoil in the FBI using today? PC has brought us full circle and we are back to where we started.
_________________________
2004 Toyota Corolla 121829
Out: QSUD 5W-30 Purolator One 5030
In: Valvoline ML 5w-30 TG4967 117530 2-8-18
2006 Duramax 74047
Out: T6 5W-40 M1-303
In: T6 5W-40 XG9100 73752 4-22-18

Top
#4640643 - 01/20/18 06:38 AM Re: 1986 FBI Miami Shootout [Re: JohnnyJohnson]
MuzzleFlash40 Offline


Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 1162
Loc: SE Ohio
Originally Posted By: JohnnyJohnson
Originally Posted By: MuzzleFlash40

We learned a lot from these type of incidents, but we still have a long way to go. Unfortunately it takes things like this for the brass and "decision makers" to see it.


We did? What do we arm women and people that can't deal with recoil in the FBI using today? PC has brought us full circle and we are back to where we started.


If you're referring to the 9mm, the ballistics of todays duty/carry ammo is far different than 30 years ago. Current ballistics of the .40 and 9mm are near identical. For duty I can carry either one, I carry the 9mm because I like having more rounds. With 3 mags I have 6 more rounds than a comparable gun in a .40. I am a bigger guy too.

But hey, carry what makes you feel better. Both have pluses and minuses. I carried a .40 for a while until we were allowed to carry what we wanted.
_________________________
18 Sonata SEL 2.4-7k
HK Syn 5w30 & OEM
16 Santa Fe Sport AWD 2.4-60k
Cam2 SynBlend 5w30 & OEM
09 Silverado LT 4x4 4.8-100k
Castrol GTX HM 5w30 & Fram




Top
#4640651 - 01/20/18 06:53 AM Re: 1986 FBI Miami Shootout [Re: bigj_16]
Astro14 Offline


Registered: 10/10/10
Posts: 8548
Loc: Virginia Beach
This came up two days ago at my LGS as I looked at a S&W 1006 that I was considering.

The salesperson had never heard of that shootout, the FBI adoption of the 10mm, the reduction in the 10mm velocity to "FBI Load", and the subsequent creation of the .40S&W.

They wanted about $400 more than I was willing to pay...



The salesperson found the 1006 to be too big for her hands...even though her carry gun was a 1911! So, we ended the conversation about the cartridge with this: because that gun was too much, the .40S&W was created.

Still looking for a good example of 1006.

I think the other important factor in this shootout was the determined, well-armed adversary. The two criminals were both Army vets, armed with long guns (Mini-14 and 12 gauge, I think), and continued to fight despite being hit several times. One of them was mortally wounded (bullet collapsed a lung, and he would eventually die from this) and both were hit several times, but they continued to fight and return effective fire. Neither was on drugs or had any chemical reason for their tenacity, they just continued to fight.

Despite the agents outnumbering them 4 to 1, and despite the agents having shotguns, they fought effectively, and killed two of the agents.


Edited by Astro14 (01/20/18 06:56 AM)
_________________________
32 Packard 15W40
02 Volvo V70 T5 0W40 M1
02 Volvo V70 XC 0W40 Edge
05 MB S600 0W40 M1
16 Tundra 1794 5W30 Valvoline

Top
#4640729 - 01/20/18 09:02 AM Re: 1986 FBI Miami Shootout [Re: Astro14]
bigj_16 Offline


Registered: 07/03/17
Posts: 1271
Loc: Douglas County, Colorado
Originally Posted By: Astro14
This came up two days ago at my LGS as I looked at a S&W 1006 that I was considering.

The salesperson had never heard of that shootout, the FBI adoption of the 10mm, the reduction in the 10mm velocity to "FBI Load", and the subsequent creation of the .40S&W.

They wanted about $400 more than I was willing to pay...



The salesperson found the 1006 to be too big for her hands...even though her carry gun was a 1911! So, we ended the conversation about the cartridge with this: because that gun was too much, the .40S&W was created.

Still looking for a good example of 1006.

I think the other important factor in this shootout was the determined, well-armed adversary. The two criminals were both Army vets, armed with long guns (Mini-14 and 12 gauge, I think), and continued to fight despite being hit several times. One of them was mortally wounded (bullet collapsed a lung, and he would eventually die from this) and both were hit several times, but they continued to fight and return effective fire. Neither was on drugs or had any chemical reason for their tenacity, they just continued to fight.

Despite the agents outnumbering them 4 to 1, and despite the agents having shotguns, they fought effectively, and killed two of the agents.


After all that talk, she wouldn't drop the price? smile

Top
#4640798 - 01/20/18 09:57 AM Re: 1986 FBI Miami Shootout [Re: bigj_16]
Leo99 Offline


Registered: 03/30/14
Posts: 3052
Loc: NJ
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
Originally Posted By: Astro14
This came up two days ago at my LGS as I looked at a S&W 1006 that I was considering.

The salesperson had never heard of that shootout, the FBI adoption of the 10mm, the reduction in the 10mm velocity to "FBI Load", and the subsequent creation of the .40S&W.

They wanted about $400 more than I was willing to pay...



The salesperson found the 1006 to be too big for her hands...even though her carry gun was a 1911! So, we ended the conversation about the cartridge with this: because that gun was too much, the .40S&W was created.

Still looking for a good example of 1006.

I think the other important factor in this shootout was the determined, well-armed adversary. The two criminals were both Army vets, armed with long guns (Mini-14 and 12 gauge, I think), and continued to fight despite being hit several times. One of them was mortally wounded (bullet collapsed a lung, and he would eventually die from this) and both were hit several times, but they continued to fight and return effective fire. Neither was on drugs or had any chemical reason for their tenacity, they just continued to fight.

Despite the agents outnumbering them 4 to 1, and despite the agents having shotguns, they fought effectively, and killed two of the agents.


After all that talk, she wouldn't drop the price? smile


The little sign says "consignment". She might not have any leeway to negotiate the price.
_________________________
Without data you're just another person with an opinion. W. E. Deming

2003 Corolla 250,000 miles
2004 Rav4 359,000 miles
2015 Camry 59,000 miles

Top
#4641089 - 01/20/18 03:29 PM Re: 1986 FBI Miami Shootout [Re: bigj_16]
john_pifer Offline


Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 1972
Loc: Nashville, TN via Memphis
1006 is a cool pistol. Only thing wrong with it is that danged safety lever on the slide.

Anybody know how easy/hard it is to do a good trigger job on one?
_________________________
16 WRX - PPPP
07 Tacoma V6 - M1 EP 5W-30, Fram Ultra, 10K OCIs, 198K
07 Yamaha R1 - Rotella T6 5W-40, Bosch 3300
07 Yamaha YZ-250, Klotz, Rotella


Top
#4641094 - 01/20/18 03:37 PM Re: 1986 FBI Miami Shootout [Re: Leo99]
Astro14 Offline


Registered: 10/10/10
Posts: 8548
Loc: Virginia Beach
Originally Posted By: Leo99
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
Originally Posted By: Astro14
This came up two days ago at my LGS as I looked at a S&W 1006 that I was considering.

The salesperson had never heard of that shootout, the FBI adoption of the 10mm, the reduction in the 10mm velocity to "FBI Load", and the subsequent creation of the .40S&W.

They wanted about $400 more than I was willing to pay...



The salesperson found the 1006 to be too big for her hands...even though her carry gun was a 1911! So, we ended the conversation about the cartridge with this: because that gun was too much, the .40S&W was created.

Still looking for a good example of 1006.

I think the other important factor in this shootout was the determined, well-armed adversary. The two criminals were both Army vets, armed with long guns (Mini-14 and 12 gauge, I think), and continued to fight despite being hit several times. One of them was mortally wounded (bullet collapsed a lung, and he would eventually die from this) and both were hit several times, but they continued to fight and return effective fire. Neither was on drugs or had any chemical reason for their tenacity, they just continued to fight.

Despite the agents outnumbering them 4 to 1, and despite the agents having shotguns, they fought effectively, and killed two of the agents.


After all that talk, she wouldn't drop the price? smile


The little sign says "consignment". She might not have any leeway to negotiate the price.


You are correct. She said exactly that. We agreed that the seller was an optimist....
_________________________
32 Packard 15W40
02 Volvo V70 T5 0W40 M1
02 Volvo V70 XC 0W40 Edge
05 MB S600 0W40 M1
16 Tundra 1794 5W30 Valvoline

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >