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1986 FBI Miami Shootout #4640285
01/19/18 06:45 PM
01/19/18 06:45 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,292
Douglas County, Colorado
bigj_16 Offline OP
bigj_16  Offline OP
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,292
Douglas County, Colorado
I referenced this shootout a little while ago in another thread. I was just reading the account on Wikipedia again today, and it really struck me again, as I had not read it in a while. This shootout had a huge impact on law enforcement, among others. If you have not read it in a while (or at all), read it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

This is the 8 minute shootout scene from the movie, which by all accounts was pretty accurate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBGfKtuo2AM

Last edited by bigj_16; 01/19/18 06:58 PM.
Re: 1986 FBI Miami Shootout [Re: bigj_16] #4640292
01/19/18 06:52 PM
01/19/18 06:52 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,916
Chicago, IL
EdwardC Offline
EdwardC  Offline
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,916
Chicago, IL
I first read about that shootout when researching the 10mm round. Pretty incredible all the changes that stemmed from that event, like the creation of the now ubiquitous 40 S&W, among many other things.

Re: 1986 FBI Miami Shootout [Re: bigj_16] #4640300
01/19/18 07:02 PM
01/19/18 07:02 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 5,452
Soviet State of Washington
PimTac Offline
PimTac  Offline
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 5,452
Soviet State of Washington
Yep, it usually takes an event to make change. This story is from my hometown. The Tacoma Hilltop was one of the worse neighborhoods in the country then. I worked near there. It was a war zone on weekends.

http://wethearmed.com/strategy-and-tactics/us-army-rangers-vs-drug-dealers-tacoma-wa-1989/


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Re: 1986 FBI Miami Shootout [Re: bigj_16] #4640301
01/19/18 07:02 PM
01/19/18 07:02 PM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 5,142
Glendale, Arizona
billt460 Offline
billt460  Offline
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 5,142
Glendale, Arizona
I think the biggest mistake the FBI made in this thing was not involving weaponry. They chased 2 heavily armed suspects they knew liked to shoot, into a residential area, and engaged them. They had air surveillance on the car. They could have pulled back, but didn't. This is like a lot of southern California car chases you see on the news. It starts out by a guy speeding or running a red light. They end up with 5 news helicopters following the guy. Yet they still chase them until there is a big crash and someone gets severely injured or killed. Weapon calibers were not the only thing the FBI changed after that incident.

Re: 1986 FBI Miami Shootout [Re: bigj_16] #4640304
01/19/18 07:07 PM
01/19/18 07:07 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,292
Douglas County, Colorado
bigj_16 Offline OP
bigj_16  Offline OP
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,292
Douglas County, Colorado
It really is a dyslexic account, incompetence on one hand, incredible bravery on the other.

Re: 1986 FBI Miami Shootout [Re: bigj_16] #4640313
01/19/18 07:14 PM
01/19/18 07:14 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 438
Illinois
wymi516 Offline
wymi516  Offline
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 438
Illinois


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Re: 1986 FBI Miami Shootout [Re: wymi516] #4640344
01/19/18 07:43 PM
01/19/18 07:43 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,292
Douglas County, Colorado
bigj_16 Offline OP
bigj_16  Offline OP
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,292
Douglas County, Colorado
Originally Posted By: wymi516


Good video.

Re: 1986 FBI Miami Shootout [Re: bigj_16] #4640372
01/19/18 08:11 PM
01/19/18 08:11 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,164
SE Ohio
MuzzleFlash40 Offline
MuzzleFlash40  Offline
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,164
SE Ohio
They still talk about this in the academy along with the Newhall massacre. It had little to do with caliber as much as bullet design. They were using antiquated "fbi lead loads" which had very poor reliability with expansion. They suffered non-survivable wounds, even if a .45 had gone through the same channel the result would've been the same.

We learned a lot from these type of incidents, but we still have a long way to go. Unfortunately it takes things like this for the brass and "decision makers" to see it.


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Re: 1986 FBI Miami Shootout [Re: MuzzleFlash40] #4640420
01/19/18 08:48 PM
01/19/18 08:48 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,222
Wet side WA
JohnnyJohnson Offline
JohnnyJohnson  Offline
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,222
Wet side WA
Originally Posted By: MuzzleFlash40

We learned a lot from these type of incidents, but we still have a long way to go. Unfortunately it takes things like this for the brass and "decision makers" to see it.


We did? What do we arm women and people that can't deal with recoil in the FBI using today? PC has brought us full circle and we are back to where we started.


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Re: 1986 FBI Miami Shootout [Re: JohnnyJohnson] #4640643
01/20/18 07:38 AM
01/20/18 07:38 AM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,164
SE Ohio
MuzzleFlash40 Offline
MuzzleFlash40  Offline
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,164
SE Ohio
Originally Posted By: JohnnyJohnson
Originally Posted By: MuzzleFlash40

We learned a lot from these type of incidents, but we still have a long way to go. Unfortunately it takes things like this for the brass and "decision makers" to see it.


We did? What do we arm women and people that can't deal with recoil in the FBI using today? PC has brought us full circle and we are back to where we started.


If you're referring to the 9mm, the ballistics of todays duty/carry ammo is far different than 30 years ago. Current ballistics of the .40 and 9mm are near identical. For duty I can carry either one, I carry the 9mm because I like having more rounds. With 3 mags I have 6 more rounds than a comparable gun in a .40. I am a bigger guy too.

But hey, carry what makes you feel better. Both have pluses and minuses. I carried a .40 for a while until we were allowed to carry what we wanted.


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Re: 1986 FBI Miami Shootout [Re: bigj_16] #4640651
01/20/18 07:53 AM
01/20/18 07:53 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,809
Virginia Beach
Astro14 Offline
Astro14  Offline
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,809
Virginia Beach
This came up two days ago at my LGS as I looked at a S&W 1006 that I was considering.

The salesperson had never heard of that shootout, the FBI adoption of the 10mm, the reduction in the 10mm velocity to "FBI Load", and the subsequent creation of the .40S&W.

They wanted about $400 more than I was willing to pay...



The salesperson found the 1006 to be too big for her hands...even though her carry gun was a 1911! So, we ended the conversation about the cartridge with this: because that gun was too much, the .40S&W was created.

Still looking for a good example of 1006.

I think the other important factor in this shootout was the determined, well-armed adversary. The two criminals were both Army vets, armed with long guns (Mini-14 and 12 gauge, I think), and continued to fight despite being hit several times. One of them was mortally wounded (bullet collapsed a lung, and he would eventually die from this) and both were hit several times, but they continued to fight and return effective fire. Neither was on drugs or had any chemical reason for their tenacity, they just continued to fight.

Despite the agents outnumbering them 4 to 1, and despite the agents having shotguns, they fought effectively, and killed two of the agents.

Last edited by Astro14; 01/20/18 07:56 AM.

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Re: 1986 FBI Miami Shootout [Re: Astro14] #4640729
01/20/18 10:02 AM
01/20/18 10:02 AM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,292
Douglas County, Colorado
bigj_16 Offline OP
bigj_16  Offline OP
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,292
Douglas County, Colorado
Originally Posted By: Astro14
This came up two days ago at my LGS as I looked at a S&W 1006 that I was considering.

The salesperson had never heard of that shootout, the FBI adoption of the 10mm, the reduction in the 10mm velocity to "FBI Load", and the subsequent creation of the .40S&W.

They wanted about $400 more than I was willing to pay...



The salesperson found the 1006 to be too big for her hands...even though her carry gun was a 1911! So, we ended the conversation about the cartridge with this: because that gun was too much, the .40S&W was created.

Still looking for a good example of 1006.

I think the other important factor in this shootout was the determined, well-armed adversary. The two criminals were both Army vets, armed with long guns (Mini-14 and 12 gauge, I think), and continued to fight despite being hit several times. One of them was mortally wounded (bullet collapsed a lung, and he would eventually die from this) and both were hit several times, but they continued to fight and return effective fire. Neither was on drugs or had any chemical reason for their tenacity, they just continued to fight.

Despite the agents outnumbering them 4 to 1, and despite the agents having shotguns, they fought effectively, and killed two of the agents.


After all that talk, she wouldn't drop the price? smile

Re: 1986 FBI Miami Shootout [Re: bigj_16] #4640798
01/20/18 10:57 AM
01/20/18 10:57 AM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,268
NJ
Leo99 Offline
Leo99  Offline
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,268
NJ
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
Originally Posted By: Astro14
This came up two days ago at my LGS as I looked at a S&W 1006 that I was considering.

The salesperson had never heard of that shootout, the FBI adoption of the 10mm, the reduction in the 10mm velocity to "FBI Load", and the subsequent creation of the .40S&W.

They wanted about $400 more than I was willing to pay...



The salesperson found the 1006 to be too big for her hands...even though her carry gun was a 1911! So, we ended the conversation about the cartridge with this: because that gun was too much, the .40S&W was created.

Still looking for a good example of 1006.

I think the other important factor in this shootout was the determined, well-armed adversary. The two criminals were both Army vets, armed with long guns (Mini-14 and 12 gauge, I think), and continued to fight despite being hit several times. One of them was mortally wounded (bullet collapsed a lung, and he would eventually die from this) and both were hit several times, but they continued to fight and return effective fire. Neither was on drugs or had any chemical reason for their tenacity, they just continued to fight.

Despite the agents outnumbering them 4 to 1, and despite the agents having shotguns, they fought effectively, and killed two of the agents.


After all that talk, she wouldn't drop the price? smile


The little sign says "consignment". She might not have any leeway to negotiate the price.


Without data you're just another person with an opinion. W. E. Deming

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Re: 1986 FBI Miami Shootout [Re: bigj_16] #4641089
01/20/18 04:29 PM
01/20/18 04:29 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,103
Nashville, TN via Memphis
john_pifer Offline
john_pifer  Offline
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,103
Nashville, TN via Memphis
1006 is a cool pistol. Only thing wrong with it is that danged safety lever on the slide.

Anybody know how easy/hard it is to do a good trigger job on one?


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Re: 1986 FBI Miami Shootout [Re: Leo99] #4641094
01/20/18 04:37 PM
01/20/18 04:37 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,809
Virginia Beach
Astro14 Offline
Astro14  Offline
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,809
Virginia Beach
Originally Posted By: Leo99
Originally Posted By: bigj_16
Originally Posted By: Astro14
This came up two days ago at my LGS as I looked at a S&W 1006 that I was considering.

The salesperson had never heard of that shootout, the FBI adoption of the 10mm, the reduction in the 10mm velocity to "FBI Load", and the subsequent creation of the .40S&W.

They wanted about $400 more than I was willing to pay...



The salesperson found the 1006 to be too big for her hands...even though her carry gun was a 1911! So, we ended the conversation about the cartridge with this: because that gun was too much, the .40S&W was created.

Still looking for a good example of 1006.

I think the other important factor in this shootout was the determined, well-armed adversary. The two criminals were both Army vets, armed with long guns (Mini-14 and 12 gauge, I think), and continued to fight despite being hit several times. One of them was mortally wounded (bullet collapsed a lung, and he would eventually die from this) and both were hit several times, but they continued to fight and return effective fire. Neither was on drugs or had any chemical reason for their tenacity, they just continued to fight.

Despite the agents outnumbering them 4 to 1, and despite the agents having shotguns, they fought effectively, and killed two of the agents.


After all that talk, she wouldn't drop the price? smile


The little sign says "consignment". She might not have any leeway to negotiate the price.


You are correct. She said exactly that. We agreed that the seller was an optimist....


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