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Oil for high performance HT/HS VW T4/Porsche 914? #4637467
01/17/18 08:59 AM
01/17/18 08:59 AM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 5
Oregon
VWBobby Offline OP
VWBobby  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 5
Oregon
I have been researching for weeks but still can't make up my mind. I really need the help of some Porsche/VW engine builders and tribologists.

Lots of specs have changed in the last 2 - 3 years for oil....Very hard to keep up!

I have several high performance flat tappet/solid lifter engines, Type 4/914 based and VW Type 1.
Most of the engines were built around '03/04 or earlier, before the big oil freakout and flat cam scare of that era.

My pride and joy is a 2270cc Type 4 with a Webcam 163/86b cam. This is in a '65 VW Bus smile

Back when I built the engine, oil was not such a problem and I believe I broke it in on straight Castrol HD30 wt (2004ish).

The engine only has ~400 miles on it and I changed the oil to Mobil 1 15w50 a few years ago.

I haven't inspected the cam, but I want to avoid any chance of damage.

Currently bought some Valvoline VR1 10w30 Conventional (~1400 Zinc/phos), but have not installed it yet.

I've been reading that the "best" oil is Driven DT50 15w50 for these engines, but can't find it locally.

Questions:

1) Is the VR1 10w30 OK to use for now? (have not changed it yet)
2) Is Mobil 1 15w50 SN OK for my application? (Did I do damage so far?)
3) Should I wait and buy some Driven DT50, or should I go with Amsoil, Redline, or ?
4) With articles like the 540RAT blog, it makes me wonder how important ZDDP is for HP Flat Tappet applications? Lots of muscle car engine builders still swear by high ZDDP numbers...

Amsoil and Driven are mail-order only in my area. All other oils are available, Redline, and all auto parts store oils... Looking for the "best" protection for HT/HS in a High Performance flat tappet application. Keep in mind a HP VW engine can reach ~380F on the head temps under full load.

Thanks in advance!
-Bobby

Re: Oil for high performance HT/HS VW T4/Porsche 914? [Re: VWBobby] #4637504
01/17/18 09:48 AM
01/17/18 09:48 AM
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 2,523
SE British Columbia, Canada
Snagglefoot Offline
Snagglefoot  Offline
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 2,523
SE British Columbia, Canada
Just curious, what does the owners manual for the original donor vehicle say? Would you value Porshe's recommendation?

SF


If you want the job done right......do it yourself.
Re: Oil for high performance HT/HS VW T4/Porsche 914? [Re: VWBobby] #4637505
01/17/18 09:48 AM
01/17/18 09:48 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5,541
Fort Lauderdale, FL
DoubleWasp Offline
DoubleWasp  Offline
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5,541
Fort Lauderdale, FL
The VR1 will have no problem handling a flat tappet cam. If anything, it will deliver superior performance for it.

I'm not terribly familiar with those VW engines, but I'd be using the 20w50 if I were looking at oil temps that high.

The M1 15/50 is fine. It's not had its zinc and additives slashed as badly as the 20 and 30 weight oils.

540RAT's "information" is dubious at best. His "science" is far from accurate.

There is some debate over the importance of zinc and phosphorus to flat tappet cams, but you will be hard pressed to find a cam manufacturer who will not recommend a high zinc oil.

It's just a matter of whether or not you want to stick your neck out there.


07 Lincoln Navigator M1 0w-40/FU
68 Charger R/T / Supercharged 440 VR1/DBL7349
07 Ram 3500 4x4 / Cummins 6.7 /DBL7349
17 Maserati GranTurismo Cabrio
Re: Oil for high performance HT/HS VW T4/Porsche 914? [Re: Snagglefoot] #4637512
01/17/18 10:03 AM
01/17/18 10:03 AM
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 4,904
North Carolina
rooflessVW Online content
rooflessVW  Online Content
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 4,904
North Carolina
Originally Posted By: Snagglefoot
Just curious, what does the owners manual for the original donor vehicle say? Would you value Porshe's recommendation?

SF

Porsche will likely recommend their "Classic" 10W-60.


"Zed's dead baby, Zed's dead."
Re: Oil for high performance HT/HS VW T4/Porsche 914? [Re: VWBobby] #4637517
01/17/18 10:08 AM
01/17/18 10:08 AM
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 2,523
SE British Columbia, Canada
Snagglefoot Offline
Snagglefoot  Offline
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 2,523
SE British Columbia, Canada
They still make it. Just sayin.

SF


If you want the job done right......do it yourself.
Re: Oil for high performance HT/HS VW T4/Porsche 914? [Re: VWBobby] #4637528
01/17/18 10:22 AM
01/17/18 10:22 AM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 174
Kevil,Ky
vwmaniaman Offline
vwmaniaman  Offline
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 174
Kevil,Ky
I have a 2L Type 4 motor in my 1975 Westfalia and I run Rotella 15-40 Dino in it with no valve adjustments changing. After a freeway run of about 70 miles at 65-70 mph, when I pull in for gas I check the oil temp with my fingers. It is hot but really not really that hot. Seems to work fine. I have about 3K on it since I rebuilt it. It came from New Mexico and has no chassis rust.


Don't waste your time on a slipshod repair.
Re: Oil for high performance HT/HS VW T4/Porsche 914? [Re: VWBobby] #4637656
01/17/18 12:47 PM
01/17/18 12:47 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 429
Florida, USA
vintageant Offline
vintageant  Offline
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 429
Florida, USA
Any HDEO 15W-40. As Mobil Delvac 1300 Super has the highest ZDDP of the popular HDEO 15W-40s, that's what I use. 20W-50 might be OK in more tropical climes, but for your air-cooled engines in OR, 15W-40 should be good. I also use LM MoS2


1925 Alvis HDEO 15W40
1937 Alvis Speed 25 20W50 w LM MoS2 & LM MOS
1970 VW Peking - Paris Rally Beetle HDEO 15W40 w LM MoS2
1987 Porsche 924S HDEO 15W40
Re: Oil for high performance HT/HS VW T4/Porsche 914? [Re: VWBobby] #4637733
01/17/18 02:18 PM
01/17/18 02:18 PM
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 2,523
SE British Columbia, Canada
Snagglefoot Offline
Snagglefoot  Offline
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 2,523
SE British Columbia, Canada
Just for fun, I got on the Mobil website and checked out the oldest air cooled Porsche I could find. I came up with a 1980 911. They didn't have any data on anything older. Mobil recommends Mobil 1 15-50. That sounds like a pretty good compromise to me.

SF


If you want the job done right......do it yourself.
Re: Oil for high performance HT/HS VW T4/Porsche 914? [Re: VWBobby] #4637798
01/17/18 03:30 PM
01/17/18 03:30 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 101
GA
Pike51 Offline
Pike51  Offline
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 101
GA


1951 Chevy pickup 350/700r4
2015 Chevrolet Suburban LTZ 4x4
Re: Oil for high performance HT/HS VW T4/Porsche 914? [Re: VWBobby] #4637912
01/17/18 05:49 PM
01/17/18 05:49 PM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,040
Ruidoso, NM USA
ammolab Offline
ammolab  Offline
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,040
Ruidoso, NM USA
If the VR-1 10W-30 seems to thin?. Mix it 50/50 with the VR-1 20W-50. That is what I run in my BMW boxer twin (half a high performance VW engine)


2009 Honda CR-V
2011 BMW R1200R
2005 Kaw Ninja 250
1994 Jeep Wrangler 2.5L
2016 Chevy SS Sport Sedan
Re: Oil for high performance HT/HS VW T4/Porsche 914? [Re: VWBobby] #4637967
01/17/18 06:30 PM
01/17/18 06:30 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,448
Atlanta
DuckRyder Offline
DuckRyder  Offline
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,448
Atlanta
Hi Bobby,

Mobil 1 V-Twin is popular with the 911 crowd, whether there is actually any facts behind why it is popular I am not sure of.

I think I have a 914 owners manual and workshop manual at the house and see if I can find the original recommendation. I settled on a HDEO when I built mine but havent dug into it in some years.


Robert
  • 2007 Toyota Prius Touring
  • 2005 Honda Civic Sedan
  • 1972 Ford F100
Re: Oil for high performance HT/HS VW T4/Porsche 914? [Re: VWBobby] #4638014
01/17/18 07:10 PM
01/17/18 07:10 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 417
Stewartstown PA
spiderbypass Offline
spiderbypass  Offline
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 417
Stewartstown PA
Amsoil 20w50 has high calcium high zddp content identical additive package to their CI 4 plus diesel oils. Will include link found on you tube describing the oil. It is from Amsoil guy but thought his presentations were helpful when I was looking for oil options for older Mercedes.

https://youtu.be/tAJ4tqpwE4E


Insecurity with overcompensation are the root of evil deeds.
Re: Oil for high performance HT/HS VW T4/Porsche 914? [Re: Snagglefoot] #4638132
01/17/18 08:39 PM
01/17/18 08:39 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 5
Oregon
VWBobby Offline OP
VWBobby  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 5
Oregon
Wow, you guys are active here! Great to see such a helpful community. smile

Originally Posted By: Snagglefoot
Just curious, what does the owners manual for the original donor vehicle say? Would you value Porshe's recommendation?

SF


According to VW/Porsche, all of the charts pretty much show a 15w40 or 15w50 for most all climates between 14F to around 100F.
I will be operating in 40F - 60F weather until very late in the summer. When July/Aug hits, I will probably switch to a 15w40/50.
Examples all look similar to this:

Out shopping today I spotted Castrol Syntec Edge "with Titanium" 5w40, that meets Porsche A40/BMW LL01, ACEA, SL/SM/SN.... Found it interesting it actually mentions SL.
I generally am not a big fan of Castrol, but it looks pretty good from what I have found. What do you guys think of it? Only $7.99 regular price and readily available.

I was noticing most of the CK4 "Diesel"/HDEO's do not show an SN rating anymore, and the VOA's are coming back with less than 1200PPM zinc and less than 1100 phos on most of the later VOA's I've seen here. Examples would be Rotella T6 5w40 CK4. Despite this, the charts on their website show about a 100% increase in wear protection for the cam? Must be more boron, moly, or some other friction modifier that works well in this app?

Still trying to learn everything I can about oil.... smile

Re: Oil for high performance HT/HS VW T4/Porsche 914? [Re: VWBobby] #4638148
01/17/18 08:47 PM
01/17/18 08:47 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 417
Stewartstown PA
spiderbypass Offline
spiderbypass  Offline
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 417
Stewartstown PA
I have 1993 Mercedes Diesel antithesis of power and performance to your Porsche, but requires oil with high zddp. Amsoil (have used products not a seller) has pre 2007 diesel oils that would work in your application. Mobil 1 0w40 and their 5w50 fs have a strong additive package. I have the 0w40 in car now with a touch of redline break in additive which adds calcium and zddp to oil not using that much. There is a voa on redline here. I also just saw used oil analysis of Amsoil 10w40 sane additive pack as 20w50 and 15w40 AME -is under used gasoline oil analysis

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4638107/Amsoil_10W40,_6000,_60,000#Post4638107

Last edited by spiderbypass; 01/17/18 08:58 PM.

Insecurity with overcompensation are the root of evil deeds.
Re: Oil for high performance HT/HS VW T4/Porsche 914? [Re: VWBobby] #4638163
01/17/18 08:57 PM
01/17/18 08:57 PM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,040
Ruidoso, NM USA
ammolab Offline
ammolab  Offline
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,040
Ruidoso, NM USA
DELO 400 LE Synthetic Diesel and Mobil 1 TDT synthetic diesel 5W-40s both retain their gasoline ratings (SM/SN)


2009 Honda CR-V
2011 BMW R1200R
2005 Kaw Ninja 250
1994 Jeep Wrangler 2.5L
2016 Chevy SS Sport Sedan
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