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Dynamic Skip Fire for 2019 Sierra V8 Engines #4635637
01/15/18 12:09 PM
01/15/18 12:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,666
Idaho
SubLGT Offline OP
SubLGT  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,666
Idaho
GM has announced that the Dynamic Skip Fire cylinder deactivation system developed by Delphi (hardware) and Tula (software) will be implemented on the 2019 Sierra.

Quote:
...DSF is applied to each individual cylinder, and it continuously varies which cylinders must be firing, as it works in sync with the engines throttle system. In normal engines, the flap in the throttle body is almost always in a closed position but, with DSF, the flap is nearly always open to control the engines power by varying the number of cylinders needed.
The cylinders are shut off by stopping the flow of oil with special valve lifters on each cylinder.
The more power you need out of your engine, the more torque, the harder you press down on the accelerator pedal, the greater percentage of your cylinders will fire. This is software-enabled variable displacement, Tula CEO, Scott Bailey, told Automotive News.
Tula says a V8-powered SUV typically only requires 30 hp to cruise on a highway to hold its speed and, with DSF, six cylinders shut down to provide a monumental 21-percent increase in fuel economy, as tested in the real world on a GMC Yukon Denali.


Read more: http://gmauthority.com/blog/2015/09/gene.../#ixzz54H15HQ61 .



http://articles.sae.org/15485/
Quote:
...DSF is claimed to be the industrys first fully-variable engine cylinder deactivation technology.

...Delphi and partner Tula Technology have revealed test data showing NVH reduction benefits with use of their jointly-developed Dynamic Skip Fire (DSF) cylinder deactivation system that was designed to reduce engine fuel consumption and emissions

....During DSF operation, the decision to fire or skip a cylinder is made immediately prior to each ignition event, with each event considered independently and in sequence. DSF also allows all-cylinder cutoff during deceleration. Many factors are considered when deciding which cylinders to fire; these include torque demand, NVH characteristics of the engine and the frequencies and amplitudes that must be avoided in order to eliminate any impact on occupant comfort.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ei1NyfgY5Ds

Re: Dynamic Skip Fire for 2019 Sierra V8 Engines [Re: SubLGT] #4635651
01/15/18 12:23 PM
01/15/18 12:23 PM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 12,255
N.H, U.S.A.
ARCOgraphite Offline
ARCOgraphite  Offline
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 12,255
N.H, U.S.A.
Isnt this Like what Fiat is doing with Multiair on their 4 cylinder engines? Throttling the engine with valve events timing and lift - of course minus the "skip fire" ( With the unfortunate name "skip fire" I see a tragedy for this tech and GM on the horizon )

Last edited by ARCOgraphite; 01/15/18 12:25 PM.

2014 Nissan Rogue S CVT, OC#9 41392mi-QSUD10W30 + M110A CHAMP Filter; 2017 Subaru Crosstrek CVT OC#2 ?? mi-SOA/Idemitsu 0w20 + SOA Filter
Re: Dynamic Skip Fire for 2019 Sierra V8 Engines [Re: SubLGT] #4635692
01/15/18 01:10 PM
01/15/18 01:10 PM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 534
Louisiana
SuzukiGoat Offline
SuzukiGoat  Offline
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 534
Louisiana
You want a GM designed system doing this.... Really?


2003 Nissan Xterra 4x4 M1 HM 10w40
2001 Toyota 4runner 4x4 M1 0w40
2016 Yamaha YXZ1000R VR1 20w50

Re: Dynamic Skip Fire for 2019 Sierra V8 Engines [Re: SubLGT] #4635699
01/15/18 01:16 PM
01/15/18 01:16 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5,541
Fort Lauderdale, FL
DoubleWasp Offline
DoubleWasp  Offline
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5,541
Fort Lauderdale, FL
GM owes at least one awful ignition system to each decade.


07 Lincoln Navigator M1 0w-40/FU
68 Charger R/T / Supercharged 440 VR1/DBL7349
07 Ram 3500 4x4 / Cummins 6.7 /DBL7349
17 Maserati GranTurismo Cabrio
Re: Dynamic Skip Fire for 2019 Sierra V8 Engines [Re: SubLGT] #4635710
01/15/18 01:27 PM
01/15/18 01:27 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,397
Illinois
mrsilv04 Offline
mrsilv04  Offline
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,397
Illinois
Let's see what people think of it sometime around 2022.


2004 Silverado - on its 3rd Jasper engine in less than one year.
Re: Dynamic Skip Fire for 2019 Sierra V8 Engines [Re: SubLGT] #4635719
01/15/18 01:37 PM
01/15/18 01:37 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 12,682
NH
supton Offline
supton  Offline
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 12,682
NH
I'm sure those guys know what they are doing. But in my mind... I don't get it. Is it one common throttle valve or one per cylinder?

Seems like a "dead" cylinder would be best to be pulling air through a wide-open throttle plate. No drag. With DI just don't inject fuel. I don't know if they snap throttle plates fast enough to make it feel seamless but maybe it's fast enough to have one per cylinder. But the downside would be getting cool air into the exhaust stream; but perhaps by alternating cylinders the exhaust stays warm enough to be diluted by the firing cylinders.

Like everything else, the proof is in the pudding. Not sure I want to be first but I'll certainly watch from the sidelines.


2011 Toyota Camry, base, 2.5L/6MT, 169k, hers
2010 Toyota Tundra DC, 4.6L/6AT, 144k, ours
1999 Toyota Camry LE, 2.2L/4AT, 192k, his
Re: Dynamic Skip Fire for 2019 Sierra V8 Engines [Re: SubLGT] #4635720
01/15/18 01:38 PM
01/15/18 01:38 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 5,772
...
PimTac Offline
PimTac  Offline
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 5,772
...
All the automakers are working with new technologies for internal combustion engines. The days of getting a simple straightforward engine seem to be going away.

I agree. Wait two or three years for any durability effects.


2017 Mazda CX-5 GT.

Valvoline Modern Engine 0w20
Mobil 1 EP 108A
Re: Dynamic Skip Fire for 2019 Sierra V8 Engines [Re: SuzukiGoat] #4635728
01/15/18 01:44 PM
01/15/18 01:44 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,249
California
nthach Online content
nthach  Online Content
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,249
California
Originally Posted By: SuzukiGoat
You want a GM designed system doing this.... Really?

Mopar, Nissan and Mercedes have been using multi-spark ignitions. Looks like this one is using code and algorithms instead of an secondary ignition system to fire the plugs more than once or even skip them.

Looks like it might be better than just killing the valves for DoD.

Last edited by nthach; 01/15/18 01:45 PM.
Re: Dynamic Skip Fire for 2019 Sierra V8 Engines [Re: SubLGT] #4635729
01/15/18 01:44 PM
01/15/18 01:44 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,392
toronto
PeterPolyol Offline
PeterPolyol  Offline
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,392
toronto
Should be smooth as silk

Originally Posted By: nthach
Originally Posted By: SuzukiGoat
You want a GM designed system doing this.... Really?

Mopar, Nissan and Mercedes have been using multi-spark ignitions. Looks like this one is using code and algorithms instead of an secondary ignition system to fire the plugs more than once.

Don't think it's like wasted spark system at all, probably more like variable cylinder disablement where (eg) anywhere from 2 to 6 cylinders are shut down depending on demand. So really the only diff. between regular cylinder deactivation is that the amount of cylinders disabled can vary instead of just one whole bank.


"Nobody else has responded to you. Nobody has defended your position. Perhaps that's a clue"
Re: Dynamic Skip Fire for 2019 Sierra V8 Engines [Re: SuzukiGoat] #4635733
01/15/18 01:48 PM
01/15/18 01:48 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 195
Wisconsin
emmett442 Offline
emmett442  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 195
Wisconsin
Originally Posted By: SuzukiGoat
You want a GM designed system doing this.... Really?


Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
GM owes at least one awful ignition system to each decade.



This was developed by a private third party - Tula Technology. Been around for a decade.

Originally Posted By: supton
I'm sure those guys know what they are doing. But in my mind... I don't get it. Is it one common throttle valve or one per cylinder?



As I understand it, there is no throttle valve: like a diesel. That way, since there is no air restriction, whichever cylinders are selected to fire are operating at peak efficiency every time they fire = less emissions and better fuel efficiency.

If that's correct, I suppose that means either they've done away with all vacuum operated equipment or they're going to use a vacuum pump to retain it.

As far as complication, it seems to me they'd be able to eliminate the throttle body and it's associated management. Not sure EXACTLY how this is implemented, but there's a chance that this could actually be a simpler (mechanically) system than what we currently have!


2011 Ford Crown Victoria LX 4.6L V8 auto
2009 Chevrolet Malibu LT 2.4L I4 auto
1974 Dodge D200 360 V8 4 speed manual
Re: Dynamic Skip Fire for 2019 Sierra V8 Engines [Re: SubLGT] #4635743
01/15/18 01:55 PM
01/15/18 01:55 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 3,026
PV Az
AZjeff Online content
AZjeff  Online Content
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 3,026
PV Az
Some people's heads are exploding as they read this..


86 Samurai 1.3 leftovers
14 RAV4 2.5 5W-20 PP
16 Silverado 1500 4.3, DI, AFM 5W-30 PP

The most important thing to do in your life is to not interfere with someone else's life. - Frank Zappa

Re: Dynamic Skip Fire for 2019 Sierra V8 Engines [Re: AZjeff] #4635748
01/15/18 01:57 PM
01/15/18 01:57 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,397
Illinois
mrsilv04 Offline
mrsilv04  Offline
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,397
Illinois
Originally Posted By: AZjeff
Some people's heads are exploding as they read this..


No, but I am trying to reasonably calculate how many more years that my 2004 Silverado, which I can still work on myself, might last.


2004 Silverado - on its 3rd Jasper engine in less than one year.
Re: Dynamic Skip Fire for 2019 Sierra V8 Engines [Re: SubLGT] #4635750
01/15/18 01:58 PM
01/15/18 01:58 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 12,682
NH
supton Offline
supton  Offline
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 12,682
NH
Ah, so one "flap" which is more of an on/off control. Enable/disable valves to limit pumping losses. Interesting. Must be able to "turn on" a cylinder pretty fast.


2011 Toyota Camry, base, 2.5L/6MT, 169k, hers
2010 Toyota Tundra DC, 4.6L/6AT, 144k, ours
1999 Toyota Camry LE, 2.2L/4AT, 192k, his
Re: Dynamic Skip Fire for 2019 Sierra V8 Engines [Re: emmett442] #4635763
01/15/18 02:09 PM
01/15/18 02:09 PM
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 158
MN
Tman220 Offline
Tman220  Offline
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 158
MN
Originally Posted By: emmett442
Originally Posted By: SuzukiGoat
You want a GM designed system doing this.... Really?


Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
GM owes at least one awful ignition system to each decade.



This was developed by a third party - Tula Technology. Been around for a decade.

Originally Posted By: supton
I'm sure those guys know what they are doing. But in my mind... I don't get it. Is it one common throttle valve or one per cylinder?



As I understand it, there is no throttle valve: like a diesel. That way, since there is no air restriction, whichever cylinders are selected to fire are operating at peak efficiency every time they fire = less emissions and better fuel efficiency.

If that's correct, I suppose that means either they've done away with all vacuum operated equipment or they're going to use a vacuum pump to retain it.

As far as complication, it seems to me they'd be able to eliminate the throttle body and it's associated management. Not sure EXACTLY how this is implemented, but there's a chance that this could actually be a simpler (mechanically) system than what we currently have!


The way I understand it is that a throttle valve will still be used, you will need it to idle smoothly because that will most certainly be done on all 8.

Under load however the throttle will be adjusted by the PCM to establish a zero vacuum condition, then power will be adjusted by how many cylinders are firing and then will be smoothed out by throttle position. This is nothing new, the pcms in the 2014 and newer trucks are already using that strategy.

Also to clarify, when cylinders are shut down they are shut down immediately after a power stroke, the lifter is shut off via oil pressure and the exhaust valve doesnt open, this maintains cylinder pressure (air spring) to seal the rings and to avoid the type of mis-fire that you can feel.

To me this sounds like more of an expansion of the current system. Most of the oil plumbing is already there, there will just by 16 special lifter rather than 8. But now the computer will have even more flexibility to make for an absolute seamless system. Right now its either 4 or 8. Also this is not ignition based, the spark plugs will keep firing away because they dont need to be shut down, If valves dont open and fuel injectors arent fired there is nothing to burn.


2012 Regal GS Turbo PP 5w30
1994 Camaro Z28 LT1 355 CI, 430 RWHP PP 5W30
Re: Dynamic Skip Fire for 2019 Sierra V8 Engines [Re: SubLGT] #4635780
01/15/18 02:31 PM
01/15/18 02:31 PM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 12,255
N.H, U.S.A.
ARCOgraphite Offline
ARCOgraphite  Offline
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 12,255
N.H, U.S.A.
yopr Chrylser /Ddoge Multiair 4 banger uses something similar minus the cylinder deactivation.Back in the 80's My plasma chamber vacuum pumps slowed down when pumping air (load) and speed up when at near perfect vacuum, so I don't fully understand pumping losses. If you aren't moving a fluid mass the work performed is less.

Last edited by ARCOgraphite; 01/15/18 02:32 PM.

2014 Nissan Rogue S CVT, OC#9 41392mi-QSUD10W30 + M110A CHAMP Filter; 2017 Subaru Crosstrek CVT OC#2 ?? mi-SOA/Idemitsu 0w20 + SOA Filter
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