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Microgreen - possibly stunning development! #4631079
01/11/18 07:29 AM
01/11/18 07:29 AM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,226
CA
CharlieBauer Offline OP
CharlieBauer  Offline OP
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,226
CA
Found this review on Amazon by Norbert M Assion:

Quote:
Because of doubts on the filters claimed 99% efficiency and claimed unbeatable extraordinary filter performance far beyond the capabilities of traditional filters, the filter has now been tested again after SOMS refused since 2013 to prove its assertions with results of carried out tests. In fact the filter does not meet the promised expectations. The filters real efficiency is 99.65% @ 40 microns and 81.78% @ 20 microns (ISO 4548-12 multiple pass) and is thus merely an average filter. With claiming 99% efficiency and without disclose also the rating number, the customer is deliberately misled and deceived. The filter purchaser believe and trust that the filter would capture 99% of all harmful particles. However, it is also true, until 2012 the oil cleanliness performance of all SOMS spin-on filter models was unrivaled. Then SOMS altered the original licensed design because of economic reasons, and the filter performance collapsed since then. The filters full-flow media as well as its micro filter media were evaluated as Absolute Rating 20Ám. Usually a 20 micron rated filter makes it impossible to capture large numbers of particles substantially smaller than 20 microns. Consequently a lot of these harmful particles remain in the oil. Undoubtedly roughly the same is happen with the spin-on filters of below listed brands:
Bosch: 99.0% @ 20μm, Pennzoil: 97.0% @ 20μm, Purolator: 99.0% @ 20μm, Mobil-1: 99.6% @ 25μm, Royal Purple: 99.0% @ 25μm, WIX: 99.0% @ 25μm. (Source: Providers documents) And for comparing: The efficiency of SOMS Spin-on filter models before 2013 was 99% @ 5Ám after 10,000 road miles additional testing and not only after some 45 minutes labor testing at ISO 4548-12 multiple pass.
Questions? Norbert M. Assion / [email protected]


https://www.amazon.com/microGreen-MG-421-8-Oil-Filter/product-reviews/B007USGLCQ

Who is Norbert M Assion?

Well he holds patents on the hybrid filter, worked with two others at SOMS Technologies where it was developed, has an article in Machinery Lubrication about the hybrid filter and was one of the authors of this paper:

http://www.wsppn.org/pdf/fleets/SOMS_Clean_Technology_2009_Abstract_Submission.pdf

Looks like there was a falling out. Nevertheless, it seems like the lack of information from Microgreen has been explained.


It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that ain't so.

- mistakenly attributed to Mark Twain
Re: Microgreen - possibly stunning development! [Re: CharlieBauer] #4631088
01/11/18 07:37 AM
01/11/18 07:37 AM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 18,651
PNW
ZeeOSix Offline
ZeeOSix  Offline
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 18,651
PNW
This is why people shouldn't believe claims of filter efficiency without data from a known industry use test spec like ISO 4548-12. Way better than believing the company becuse "they said it was so".

I'm not totally sure what his point is about other high efficiency oil filters, but he makes it sound like they can't hold alot of smaller particles, but that's normal if he's ever seen a particle size vs efficiency curve like produced during an ISO 4548-12 test. Thanks for the info.

Re: Microgreen - possibly stunning development! [Re: CharlieBauer] #4631090
01/11/18 07:40 AM
01/11/18 07:40 AM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,226
CA
CharlieBauer Offline OP
CharlieBauer  Offline OP
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,226
CA
You're welcome.


It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that ain't so.

- mistakenly attributed to Mark Twain
Re: Microgreen - possibly stunning development! [Re: CharlieBauer] #4631092
01/11/18 07:46 AM
01/11/18 07:46 AM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,225
New England
Virtus_Probi Offline
Virtus_Probi  Offline
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,225
New England
I wonder if Mr. Assion received a cease and desist letter in early November of 2016?
Good info to have, assuming it's all true. Sounds like maybe a promising product idea was not really economically viable and the company punted and resorted to selling the same ol' thing with exaggerated marketing claims based on earlier performance results.


2014 Forester XT, 86000 miles
Last Change;
M1 5W30 d1G2
Tokyo Roki 15208AA170 filter
Re: Microgreen - possibly stunning development! [Re: ZeeOSix] #4631176
01/11/18 09:37 AM
01/11/18 09:37 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,038
california
goodtimes Offline
goodtimes  Offline
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,038
california
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
This is why people shouldn't believe claims of filter efficiency without data from a known industry use test spec like ISO 4548-12. Way better than believing the company becuse "they said it was so".

I'm not totally sure what his point is about other high efficiency oil filters, but he makes it sound like they can't hold alot of smaller particles, but that's normal if he's ever seen a particle size vs efficiency curve like produced during an ISO 4548-12 test. Thanks for the info.


"This is why people shouldn't believe claims of filter efficiency without data" Five stars review for you.

That review on Amazon sounds bogus. It wasn't written by an English as first language writer. Mine isn't the best but it's still my first language. Then there are efficiencies in 1/100%'s and other red flags. All I know is a 2 micron pore disk filters out all greater than 2 micron particles, and that's the idea behind a bypass filter. Only a nut would put their email in an Amazon review.

Re: Microgreen - possibly stunning development! [Re: CharlieBauer] #4631216
01/11/18 10:18 AM
01/11/18 10:18 AM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,226
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,226
Waco, TX
My big gripe with the MicroGreen is "oil will flow along the path of least resistance"

and I just couldn't see how any measurable flow can occur through the "disc"
when all those porous pleats are right there......


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: Microgreen - possibly stunning development! [Re: goodtimes] #4631218
01/11/18 10:20 AM
01/11/18 10:20 AM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,226
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,226
Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
All I know is a 2 micron pore disk filters out all greater than 2 micron particles, and that's the idea behind a bypass filter.


I don't see how it's possible to get the pore disc to see any appreciable flow to make any difference.


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: Microgreen - possibly stunning development! [Re: CharlieBauer] #4631224
01/11/18 10:27 AM
01/11/18 10:27 AM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,769
Ca.
UncleDave Offline
UncleDave  Offline
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,769
Ca.
Interesting find - so it worked as described till they economized it.

Also sounds like a falling out between partners/ employees.

Should I believe Cummins?



UD

Last edited by UncleDave; 01/11/18 10:39 AM.

Uncle Dave
Cat 3126/2 MB3500/Titan/RX400H/17 Ridgeline
700HP V10/ 725HP BBC/ Raptor 700/ KFX450/ YZ250/Onan 8K/ Cat3011C
Re: Microgreen - possibly stunning development! [Re: CharlieBauer] #4631240
01/11/18 10:47 AM
01/11/18 10:47 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,038
california
goodtimes Offline
goodtimes  Offline
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,038
california
That inventor of the MG must have been reading here, because it has all the talking points against the MG down pat. Reading it the second time, bogus as the moon is made of swiss cheese. It's really bad.

Re: Microgreen - possibly stunning development! [Re: goodtimes] #4631245
01/11/18 10:52 AM
01/11/18 10:52 AM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,769
Ca.
UncleDave Offline
UncleDave  Offline
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,769
Ca.
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
That inventor of the MG must have been reading here, because it has all the talking points against the MG down pat. Reading it the second time, bogus as the moon is made of swiss cheese. It's really bad.


What Im reading here is the version they were paying him for absolutely met spec.

The cheapened version (users all saw the change) does not (likely they stopped paying him when they stopped using his design) and he's laying down payback.

Sound like retribution but either way Ill keep mine on the shelf till I hear more.

UD

Last edited by UncleDave; 01/11/18 10:53 AM.

Uncle Dave
Cat 3126/2 MB3500/Titan/RX400H/17 Ridgeline
700HP V10/ 725HP BBC/ Raptor 700/ KFX450/ YZ250/Onan 8K/ Cat3011C
Re: Microgreen - possibly stunning development! [Re: CharlieBauer] #4631301
01/11/18 11:40 AM
01/11/18 11:40 AM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,769
Ca.
UncleDave Offline
UncleDave  Offline
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,769
Ca.
Because Im a data driven guy and just for snicks here's my last UOA using a Microgreen mg101-7 on the wifes vans diesel genset.

Note: Blackstones commentary, and the insoluble measurement.

UD





Uncle Dave
Cat 3126/2 MB3500/Titan/RX400H/17 Ridgeline
700HP V10/ 725HP BBC/ Raptor 700/ KFX450/ YZ250/Onan 8K/ Cat3011C
Re: Microgreen - possibly stunning development! [Re: Linctex] #4631333
01/11/18 12:06 PM
01/11/18 12:06 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,769
Ca.
UncleDave Offline
UncleDave  Offline
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,769
Ca.
Originally Posted By: Linctex
My big gripe with the MicroGreen is "oil will flow along the path of least resistance"

and I just couldn't see how any measurable flow can occur through the "disc"
when all those porous pleats are right there......



A small pressure delta across the tighter media insures there is some " flow" or at least mild pressure against the secondary media.

Same basic way the cummins strata pour venturi works with its dual media and stacked disk bypass portion(it also has no 4548-12)





Im curious what bitogger feedback to me will be because my situation is interesting.

Do I keep going with what Ive tested and proven myself ?

Or do I believe what any third party says be it good or bad?



UD

Last edited by UncleDave; 01/11/18 12:09 PM.

Uncle Dave
Cat 3126/2 MB3500/Titan/RX400H/17 Ridgeline
700HP V10/ 725HP BBC/ Raptor 700/ KFX450/ YZ250/Onan 8K/ Cat3011C
Re: Microgreen - possibly stunning development! [Re: UncleDave] #4631354
01/11/18 12:25 PM
01/11/18 12:25 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,226
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,226
Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: UncleDave

A small pressure delta across the tighter media insures there is some " flow"


If that were true, the main pleated element should have higher efficiency.

I still wouldn't like the idea of a "more restrictive" full flow element
to try to generate some delta P "so the disc gets some flow", too...


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: Microgreen - possibly stunning development! [Re: Linctex] #4631357
01/11/18 12:31 PM
01/11/18 12:31 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,769
Ca.
UncleDave Offline
UncleDave  Offline
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,769
Ca.
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: UncleDave

A small pressure delta across the tighter media insures there is some " flow"


If that were true, the main pleated element should have higher efficiency.

I still wouldn't like the idea of a "more restrictive" full flow element
to try to generate some delta P "so the disc gets some flow", too...


thats probably more accurate than what I said - the disk gets "some" flow- but it passes much less than even that.



If Norb is to be believed he answered many questions we all had.

"The efficiency of SOMS Spin-on filter models before 2013 was 99% @ 5Ám after 10,000 road miles additional testing and not only after some 45 minutes labor testing at ISO 4548-12 multiple pass."

This is Interesting because thats the claim MG made when they wrote to a couple of us in private mails. So MG is still claiming the same as Norbs design.


The way I read that is it takes 10K miles to scrub a sump down to 5M - meaning its incredibly slow - as he says not a 45 minute 4548-12 run - do you guys read this the same as I am?

Probably another reason they don't call it out.


If we believe Norb.......



UD

Last edited by UncleDave; 01/11/18 12:42 PM.

Uncle Dave
Cat 3126/2 MB3500/Titan/RX400H/17 Ridgeline
700HP V10/ 725HP BBC/ Raptor 700/ KFX450/ YZ250/Onan 8K/ Cat3011C
Re: Microgreen - possibly stunning development! [Re: UncleDave] #4631364
01/11/18 12:34 PM
01/11/18 12:34 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,226
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,226
Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: UncleDave

Do I keep going with what Ive tested and proven myself ?


Repeat the same exact test with a different brand filter?


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Page 1 of 15 1 2 15

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