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Understanding NOACK and Base Oil Quality #4630534
01/10/18 01:54 PM
01/10/18 01:54 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 884
California
mbacfp Offline OP
mbacfp  Offline OP
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 884
California
Very simplistically, is an oils’ lower NOACK mainly attributable to base oil quality (PAO) or is more representative of an oil’s additive package?

I guess I am also asking if an oils' lower NOACK is attributable to more PAO vs additives, then the more PAO based oils offer more Noack stability throughout an OCI vs additive based?

Just curious how it all works.

Last edited by mbacfp; 01/10/18 01:55 PM.

2014 F-550 PSD..........M1 Delvac ESP 5w-40 + OEM
2018 Dodge Charger SRT Hellcat
2012 Toyota Sienna LTD 3.5L V6
2003 Dodge Durango R/T 4x4 5.9L V8
Re: Understanding NOACK and Base Oil Quality [Re: mbacfp] #4630544
01/10/18 02:00 PM
01/10/18 02:00 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 12,595
Idaho
CT8 Offline
CT8  Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 12,595
Idaho
Noack is the base oil blend. It is like running a 0W oil for cold pumpability worrys when you live in the Tropics.


2015 Ford F150 2.7
2018 Ford F350 6.2
Re: Understanding NOACK and Base Oil Quality [Re: mbacfp] #4630547
01/10/18 02:00 PM
01/10/18 02:00 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 945
Toronto ON
Solarent Offline
Solarent  Offline
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 945
Toronto ON
Volatility is generally a reflection of a higher concentration of light base oil cuts of any type (ie 2 cSt vs 3cSt or 4cSt). It can be impacted by the base oil mixture, the choice of VII and the use of some esters. Dilution also can impact the volatility over the life of a drain, but the NOACK test does not take this into account. The most common way to lower an oil's NOACK is to rebalance the base oil mix in the formula, but there are much more important performance properties than NOACK.

Re: Understanding NOACK and Base Oil Quality [Re: mbacfp] #4630611
01/10/18 02:46 PM
01/10/18 02:46 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,304
New Jersey
JHZR2 Offline
JHZR2  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,304
New Jersey
Don't try to assume that PAO magically makes something better.

Viscosity, molecular weight, and volatility should be loosely linked.

So there's really a matter of tighter viscosity ranges, of less volatile molecules to keep NOACK down. That generally means smaller viscosity spreads of heavier (larger) molecules, that still exhibit good cold flow properties.

Re: Understanding NOACK and Base Oil Quality [Re: mbacfp] #4630623
01/10/18 02:59 PM
01/10/18 02:59 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 14,568
Silicon Valley
PandaBear Offline
PandaBear  Offline
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 14,568
Silicon Valley
It is usually the spread between the numbers on both side of the W of the weight.

Valvoline Synpower for example in 10w30 and 5w20 has lower Noack (i.e 7.6 and 8.0) than 0w20 and 5w30 (i.e. 11+), because a more uniformed, medium chain oil has lower noack than a blend with both light and heavy chain. The lighter chain base oil evaporate during usage.


"You keep asking questions PandaBear and you'll end up a vegetarian like my wife" - Camu Mahubah
Re: Understanding NOACK and Base Oil Quality [Re: PandaBear] #4630680
01/10/18 04:20 PM
01/10/18 04:20 PM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,443
New England
Virtus_Probi Online mad
Virtus_Probi  Online Mad
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,443
New England
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
It is usually the spread between the numbers on both side of the W of the weight.

Valvoline Synpower for example in 10w30 and 5w20 has lower Noack (i.e 7.6 and 8.0) than 0w20 and 5w30 (i.e. 11+), because a more uniformed, medium chain oil has lower noack than a blend with both light and heavy chain. The lighter chain base oil evaporate during usage.


This is really interesting, I went to peek at the Synpower info and the link for the the PDS takes me to a page for Valvoline Advanced Full Synthetic oils with the term Synpower not in evidence. Also interesting is that this sheet is dated 10/12/17, replacing info from 9/22/17...often these sheets don't change for years.

Whatever products these may be, the 0W20/5W20 NOACK losses are 11.1/7.6%, 5W30/10W30 are 9.3/8.0%. Definite advantage to the higher W grades in both cases, particularly for XW20 (nearly 50% higher relative loss for the 0W20 compared to 5W20).


2014 Forester XT, 90000 miles
Last Change;
M1 5W30 d1G2
Tokyo Roki 15208AA170 filter
Re: Understanding NOACK and Base Oil Quality [Re: mbacfp] #4630691
01/10/18 04:48 PM
01/10/18 04:48 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 7,836
Marshfield , MA
andyd Offline
andyd  Offline
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 7,836
Marshfield , MA
Geez, I actually understood most of that. Thank you. You guys are wicked smart. grin2


'16 Camry LE STP synth 0w20 and STP filter. the Fridge

1994 Ranger ,the Rat, 5w30 dino, STP filter

'16 Camry SE, Valvoline HM 0w20 and OEM filter
Thick oil is better grin2
Re: Understanding NOACK and Base Oil Quality [Re: Virtus_Probi] #4630704
01/10/18 05:06 PM
01/10/18 05:06 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 6,575
...
PimTac Offline
PimTac  Offline
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 6,575
...
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
It is usually the spread between the numbers on both side of the W of the weight.

Valvoline Synpower for example in 10w30 and 5w20 has lower Noack (i.e 7.6 and 8.0) than 0w20 and 5w30 (i.e. 11+), because a more uniformed, medium chain oil has lower noack than a blend with both light and heavy chain. The lighter chain base oil evaporate during usage.


This is really interesting, I went to peek at the Synpower info and the link for the the PDS takes me to a page for Valvoline Advanced Full Synthetic oils with the term Synpower not in evidence. Also interesting is that this sheet is dated 10/12/17, replacing info from 9/22/17...often these sheets don't change for years.

Whatever products these may be, the 0W20/5W20 NOACK losses are 11.1/7.6%, 5W30/10W30 are 9.3/8.0%. Definite advantage to the higher W grades in both cases, particularly for XW20 (nearly 50% higher relative loss for the 0W20 compared to 5W20).





VSP seems to being going away in favor of VAS but now this news of VME is confusing as all get out.


Cannot see signatures any longer so it doesn’t matter.
Re: Understanding NOACK and Base Oil Quality [Re: mbacfp] #4630817
01/10/18 07:12 PM
01/10/18 07:12 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 26,267
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Garak Offline
Garak  Offline
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 26,267
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Do note that Mola explained once here about blending an oil with a very low Noack without necessarily having a high end base stock to do so.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, NAPA Gold 7356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: Understanding NOACK and Base Oil Quality [Re: mbacfp] #4630920
01/10/18 09:01 PM
01/10/18 09:01 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,591
Toronto
PeterPolyol Offline
PeterPolyol  Offline
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,591
Toronto
I remember that too, something about using additives to increase NOACK, but never saw how that's done. That was during the couldn't believe the PQIA's PYB results era- he didn't like us assuming it was GTL based


Scambling for solutions is a hopelessly futile endeavour and potentially dangerous, without first coming to a solid, personal understanding of the problem. Beware riding the ideological hobby horse.
Re: Understanding NOACK and Base Oil Quality [Re: JHZR2] #4630952
01/10/18 09:56 PM
01/10/18 09:56 PM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 2,459
[email protected] CZ firearm factory
Marco620 Offline
Marco620  Offline
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 2,459
[email protected] CZ firearm factory
I agree,buying a grp 3 is fine and works as well in 90 percent of all situations.


15' Civic R18 202,500 mi 0w20 Redline/Archoil9200/TEIN/Eibach/Injen/Tanabe Sustec/Borla Exhaust!
My house to moon is 238,900 miles! Son of a Navy Corpsman. Support vets!


Re: Understanding NOACK and Base Oil Quality [Re: mbacfp] #4631609
01/11/18 03:37 PM
01/11/18 03:37 PM
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 447
sonoma
burla Offline
burla  Offline
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 447
sonoma
Put down NOACK and pick up HTHS if you want to know about base oils. The extra heat in the hths weeds out the inferior bases, if you are simply trying to find oil that doesn't break down under heat and load. Now, many applications might see benefit from high hths, but the trend is to actually have low hths for gas mileage. In that case the low hths wouldn't mean inferior base oil, just a base that was made for gas mileage or some other spec. Soon the oil formulations will be pretty similar when gf-6 drops, best strategy just to find a cheap group 3 like m1 costco deal. You may find variances that you like, but will it be worth double the cost when you can get m1 for 4 bucks a qrt, not to my pocket book.

Re: Understanding NOACK and Base Oil Quality [Re: burla] #4631619
01/11/18 03:46 PM
01/11/18 03:46 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 945
Toronto ON
Solarent Offline
Solarent  Offline
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 945
Toronto ON
Originally Posted By: burla
Put down NOACK and pick up HTHS if you want to know about base oils. The extra heat in the hths weeds out the inferior bases, if you are simply trying to find oil that doesn't break down under heat and load. Now, many applications might see benefit from high hths, but the trend is to actually have low hths for gas mileage. In that case the low hths wouldn't mean inferior base oil, just a base that was made for gas mileage or some other spec. Soon the oil formulations will be pretty similar when gf-6 drops, best strategy just to find a cheap group 3 like m1 costco deal. You may find variances that you like, but will it be worth double the cost when you can get m1 for 4 bucks a qrt, not to my pocket book.


I completely disagree with everything you say here. Oils are now being deliberately formulated with LOWER HTHS and this is one of the major drivers in upgrading base oil quality in most formulations. Too much HTHS and all you are doing is wasting energy. There is wisdom in the adage - as thin as possible, as thick as necessary.

Re: Understanding NOACK and Base Oil Quality [Re: burla] #4632042
01/12/18 12:29 AM
01/12/18 12:29 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 26,267
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Garak Offline
Garak  Offline
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 26,267
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: burla
The extra heat in the hths weeds out the inferior bases, if you are simply trying to find oil that doesn't break down under heat and load.

What about old school monogrades, which have rather high HTHS but nothing spectacular by way of base stock?


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, NAPA Gold 7356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: Understanding NOACK and Base Oil Quality [Re: mbacfp] #4632242
01/12/18 09:18 AM
01/12/18 09:18 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,022
TX
robertcope Offline
robertcope  Offline
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,022
TX
I'll stick to Red Line 10W-30 with a low NOACK (6) and reasonably high HTHS (3.5). Seems like the best of both worlds and it's what Honda recommends in my performance cars.

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