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#4629225 - 01/09/18 12:18 PM Magnetic drain plugs and UOA sampling?
CleverUserName Offline


Registered: 11/08/17
Posts: 177
Loc: California
I recently installed a dimple magnetic plug in my engine oil pan.

Has anyone ever tried taking the material captured on the magnet and re-introducing it back into the drained oil, mixing thoroughly, and then grabbing a sample for UOA analysis? If so, how did you do it?

I was thinking a stronger magnet covered with a piece of thin steel would pull the material of of the dimple plug and it would stick to the piece of magnetized steel. Then I could remove the stronger magnet and wipe off the material from the steel into the drain pan ? Then mix it up and collect my sample.

Anybody see flaws in this idea, or have a better solution ?


Edited by CleverUserName (01/09/18 12:19 PM)

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#4629235 - 01/09/18 12:27 PM Re: Magnetic drain plugs and UOA sampling? [Re: CleverUserName]
Artem Offline


Registered: 10/30/10
Posts: 5117
Loc: Florida
I'd want to see two UOAs for comparison. One showing the used oil as is, and the second after introducing the collected iron from the magnet. Should be interesting.
_________________________
2014 Mazda 3 Hatch 2.0L & 6spd - Idemitsu 0w20 Synthetic @ $0.75 a quart.

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#4629246 - 01/09/18 12:37 PM Re: Magnetic drain plugs and UOA sampling? [Re: CleverUserName]
UncleDave Offline


Registered: 06/02/14
Posts: 1636
Loc: Ca.

Makes no sense to me. if you are going to do that - Why stop at what the magnet caught?

That would be little like cutting the filter open and dumping the content of the filters run and testing that.

The UOA will tell me what Im circulating and the cut filter and mag shows me how much I'm putting out.

I know the second I look at the mag, or in the filter if I have a a big wear/ or cleanliness problem or not.

UD
_________________________
Uncle Dave
Cat 3126/2 MB3500/Titan/RX400H/17 Ridgeline
700HP V10/ 725HP BBC/ Raptor 700/ KFX450/ YZ250/Onan 8K/ Cat3011C

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#4629249 - 01/09/18 12:38 PM Re: Magnetic drain plugs and UOA sampling? [Re: CleverUserName]
440Magnum Offline


Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 8754
Loc: Texas
Its a pointless test, IMO.

For one thing, doing that will grossly OVER estimate the ratio of particulates to oil in the sample compared to just running with a non-magnetic drain plug.

For another thing, most $30 class UOAs will only show it as "particulates" not as iron. The particles tend to be outside the size range that a UOA captures.
_________________________
'66 Dodge Polara & '69 Dodge Coronet R/T both 440/727
'08 Ram 1500 4.7/545RFE
'12 Challenger SRT8 392/6-speed
'99 XJ 4x4 4.0/AX15, '14 WK2 4x4 3.6/8HP

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#4629251 - 01/09/18 12:44 PM Re: Magnetic drain plugs and UOA sampling? [Re: CleverUserName]
Snagglefoot Offline


Registered: 12/31/17
Posts: 1722
Loc: Alberta
That sounds interesting. One other way would to be clean off the magnetic plug using a very small piece of gauze while wearing latex gloves. Drop the gauze into a small glass container containing a solvent and swirl it around to get the metal to drop off. Then pour off the solvent and move the metal to a small plastic vial. Label the vial and that way you can have a qualitative record of what is coming off.

The magnetic plug in my transfer case looks pretty fuzzy after 50,000 miles. I'll try this next time I drain it.

SF


Edited by Snagglefoot (01/09/18 12:44 PM)

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#4629258 - 01/09/18 12:51 PM Re: Magnetic drain plugs and UOA sampling? [Re: 440Magnum]
CleverUserName Offline


Registered: 11/08/17
Posts: 177
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Its a pointless test, IMO.

For one thing, doing that will grossly OVER estimate the ratio of particulates to oil in the sample compared to just running with a non-magnetic drain plug.

For another thing, most $30 class UOAs will only show it as "particulates" not as iron. The particles tend to be outside the size range that a UOA captures.



Iím not sure I understand your reasoning. Wouldnít the same quantity of metal exist without the plug, but held in suspension? Why would the plug increase the level of particulates?

Arenít metals measured by running a GC test? If so, I donít think particle size will matter. If there is Iron present it will be picked up.

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#4629263 - 01/09/18 12:54 PM Re: Magnetic drain plugs and UOA sampling? [Re: Snagglefoot]
CleverUserName Offline


Registered: 11/08/17
Posts: 177
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Snagglefoot
That sounds interesting. One other way would to be clean off the magnetic plug using a very small piece of gauze while wearing latex gloves. Drop the gauze into a small glass container containing a solvent and swirl it around to get the metal to drop off. Then pour off the solvent and move the metal to a small plastic vial. Label the vial and that way you can have a qualitative record of what is coming off.

The magnetic plug in my transfer case looks pretty fuzzy after 50,000 miles. I'll try this next time I drain it.

SF


I donít think gauze would work. The magnet on the dimple plug is very strong, not like a diff. or tranny drain plug. It was very difficult to install as it wanted to stick to the side of the pan instead of threading into the hole.

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#4629270 - 01/09/18 01:00 PM Re: Magnetic drain plugs and UOA sampling? [Re: CleverUserName]
Snagglefoot Offline


Registered: 12/31/17
Posts: 1722
Loc: Alberta
I noticed magnetic drain plugs are usually 1/2 inch 20. Are GM, Ford and Ram trucks all the same as far as the oil plug goes? Say, 2005 to present?

SF

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#4629276 - 01/09/18 01:06 PM Re: Magnetic drain plugs and UOA sampling? [Re: Snagglefoot]
CleverUserName Offline


Registered: 11/08/17
Posts: 177
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Snagglefoot
I noticed magnetic drain plugs are usually 1/2 inch 20. Are GM, Ford and Ram trucks all the same as far as the oil plug goes? Say, 2005 to present?

SF


I doubt it. It is a metric plug on my 2.8 duramax

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#4629291 - 01/09/18 01:17 PM Re: Magnetic drain plugs and UOA sampling? [Re: CleverUserName]
KGMtech Offline


Registered: 10/17/14
Posts: 965
Loc: SW Ontario Canada
The universal averages for Iron in UOA will be mostly from cars not equipped with magnetic oil plugs. You might consider of what value is spending the money for UOA if you are influencing the results by pulling out the Iron before the test?

To re-introduce the Iron into the UOA sample collection would have to be done in a way to match the engine's actual & average generation of Iron to be of any accurate measure.

I'd mention the drain plug magnet in the special notes section of the mailing kit for the UOA, but leave the Iron filings out of the bottle.
_________________________
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#4629312 - 01/09/18 01:45 PM Re: Magnetic drain plugs and UOA sampling? [Re: CleverUserName]
Snagglefoot Offline


Registered: 12/31/17
Posts: 1722
Loc: Alberta
"I donít think gauze would work. The magnet on the dimple plug is very strong, not like a diff. or tranny drain plug. It was very difficult to install as it wanted to stick to the side of the pan instead of threading into the hole.[/quote] "

I see. I didn't realize Dimple was a brand name. Here is the website for the other folks interested in this. http://www.drainplugmagnets.com


"M12x1.75x21 Magnetic Drain Plug for GM
Many GM products take this coarse thread plug, including Corvettes, Buick V6, Chevrolets, and Chevy trucks. It includes a 5/16" diameter high temperature Neodymium magnet.

$34.95 "

SF


Edited by Snagglefoot (01/09/18 01:48 PM)

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#4629373 - 01/09/18 02:55 PM Re: Magnetic drain plugs and UOA sampling? [Re: CleverUserName]
440Magnum Offline


Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 8754
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Its a pointless test, IMO.

For one thing, doing that will grossly OVER estimate the ratio of particulates to oil in the sample compared to just running with a non-magnetic drain plug.

For another thing, most $30 class UOAs will only show it as "particulates" not as iron. The particles tend to be outside the size range that a UOA captures.



Iím not sure I understand your reasoning. Wouldnít the same quantity of metal exist without the plug, but held in suspension? Why would the plug increase the level of particulates?


If you perfectly re-distribute them through ALL the oil drained, then maybe. But that woudl take a lot more than just a casual stirring.

Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
Arenít metals measured by running a GC test? If so, I donít think particle size will matter. If there is Iron present it will be picked up.


The metals shown on a typical Blackstone labs report (or other labs for similar prices) only show metal that can be vaporized in the gas chromatograph or mass spec or whatever tool they use. Particles that are too large don't contribute to the metallic numbers in the sample.
_________________________
'66 Dodge Polara & '69 Dodge Coronet R/T both 440/727
'08 Ram 1500 4.7/545RFE
'12 Challenger SRT8 392/6-speed
'99 XJ 4x4 4.0/AX15, '14 WK2 4x4 3.6/8HP

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#4629627 - 01/09/18 06:44 PM Re: Magnetic drain plugs and UOA sampling? [Re: Snagglefoot]
Linctex Offline


Registered: 12/31/16
Posts: 6148
Loc: Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: Snagglefoot

"M12x1.75x21 Magnetic Drain Plug ..... It includes a 5/16" diameter high temperature Neodymium magnet.


I don't stop with just one....

Originally Posted By: Linctex

Magnets are 8mm N50 neodymium
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(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."

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#4629684 - 01/09/18 07:21 PM Re: Magnetic drain plugs and UOA sampling? [Re: 440Magnum]
BHopkins Offline


Registered: 11/03/13
Posts: 1095
Loc: Utah
It seems like a very flawed experiment.

I'm assuming your intent is to try to quantify how much iron is captured by the magnet? Do a sample before reintroducing the iron particles, and another after adding them back in?

Here are my concerns.

First, as mentioned earlier, it seems extremely unlikely that you will get the iron particles totally blended throughout the used motor oil. It seems almost certain that your sample taken after adding the iron back in will be something other than representative of the actual. It took perhaps 100 - 200 hours of engine running time for all the iron particles to be introduced. How long could it take to redistribute them evenly?

Second, I agree with your own evaluation, that it will be almost impossible to get all the iron particles off of the magnet. But if you are OK with the knowledge that the data will be biased to something less than complete iron, then that's OK. But it seems like a lot of work for inaccurate results.

Third, and this is the one that bothers me the most. Are you taking into consideration that a great share of the iron particles that are caught by the magnet, may have been caught by the filter if the magnet had not been in place? Without a much more robustly designed experiment, you will never know. This has always been one of my biggest questions when people proudly boast of how much they capture with a drain plug or filter magnet. Unless 100% of the iron particles were removed from the magnet, and then measured for particle size distribution, then compared to the filter efficiency rating, you will never know.
_________________________
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#4629689 - 01/09/18 07:25 PM Re: Magnetic drain plugs and UOA sampling? [Re: Linctex]
UncleDave Offline


Registered: 06/02/14
Posts: 1636
Loc: Ca.
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: Snagglefoot

"M12x1.75x21 Magnetic Drain Plug ..... It includes a 5/16" diameter high temperature Neodymium magnet.


I don't stop with just one....

Originally Posted By: Linctex

Magnets are 8mm N50 neodymium


This setup is probably the best per dollar spent Ive seen.
I nitpick about partial inlet blockage , but its probably meaningless.


Im an old dog and learned a new trick with this one

UD



Edited by UncleDave (01/09/18 07:25 PM)
_________________________
Uncle Dave
Cat 3126/2 MB3500/Titan/RX400H/17 Ridgeline
700HP V10/ 725HP BBC/ Raptor 700/ KFX450/ YZ250/Onan 8K/ Cat3011C

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