Mobil1 0w20 EP, 9924 miles, 2010 Civic

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I get your point and it has crossed my mind a number of times reading these really long runs followed by a UOA that’s the same price as a jug of fresh premium oil …
 
Originally Posted By: 4WD


I get your point and it has crossed my mind a number of times reading these really long runs followed by a UOA that’s the same price as a jug of fresh premium oil …


thumbsup2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: gathermewool


No need to beg - differ all you want, brother!
13.gif


To answer your question: nope, not even close!

If the two cars were identical, then they would have passed all other checks, which would include a review of receipts, a check of fluids and other conditions around the car, as well as a test drive. Selling for top dollar does make a difference, because people will expect more (at a certain price pointed it also keeps at bay the tire kickers and some low-ballers...or maybe not - some people have no shame!)

Case in point: I found a good price on a '13 Forester before I purchased my '15 Legacy. The price was average, but the guy said his wife drove it like a gramma, mostly high, yada yada yada. The maintenance records were fine, but the car was kind of beat, such as badly swirled paint, minor dog damage inside, etc. The thing that turned me off, was that when I checked the dipstick it was below the add mark halfway through the OCI. The tires were also @ 20# each. So, even though this guy's wife may have had the vehicle serviced every 5-6k miles, they did nothing in-between. That engine might have seen multiple thousands of miles with a sump 2+ quarts low.

Conversely, I ended up trading my STI (due to accident damage, which I disclosed) instead of selling it, but had I sold it privately I would have had UOA to show that intervals longer than most are comfortable with were perfectly fine. I was also tuned Cobb Stage 1 and data-logged religiously, so I could have shown data logs from 3rd-gear pulls and long high trips - every so often, I would setup my laptop to data-log over a couple of hrs during long drives, then condense, set rules and color-code the data for review. With STI's being owned by some who are numbnuts, I would personally have been very pleased to buy one from myself, with UOA and data logs to show things are good (barring the accident).


No begging I was being polite. You missed my point totally, then put a spin on it. In my example both vehicles were identical, in every regard, price, color, miles, condition, usage, etc. Only I didn't spell it out like I did now, I thought it was clear, sorry. Every single thing identical except the OCI 5K vs. 10K. So basically to you it doesn't matter, or you'd take the car that was serviced with 10K intervals? Sorry I don't take UOA's as Gospel, especially in this case where the terms of my point being made were spelled out and the OCI is twice as long.

And yes, I do know how to price a car and screen people to reduce tire kickers.
wink.gif


Maybe we should post up a poll and ask. No comments just follow the example I laid out above and answer 5K interval or a 10K interval.


The cheesy coffee emoji was meant to invoke silliness, to set the tone for my entire post (light-hearted). Your tone seems pretty harsh, but I'll assume I'm reading too much into it.

There are no two cars that are identical, so I don't really see the point of hypothesizing about it. It's like asking me to choose between two identical cars, except that one was driven 100% highway and another was driven 95% highway. It's meaningless. The answer to any of these hypothetical questions, even if you had some magical way to determine that two cars were even close to identical, is: "it depends."

In real lift, it's more like: Car A had 5k intervals and all other service done, but shows signs of a lot of under-body rust for its age. Another had less proof of maintenance, but was spotlessly detailed and all fluids look to be in good shape. Both cars run equally well. Which would you choose? That's not even including one of the most important factors to me - the seller. Does he or she have receipts, do they know about the car, can they answer basic questions, like how much consumption is there, what happened here? :points at potential issue: Why is the left rear tire 10# lower than the rest - is it a slow leaker or what? Satisfactory answers that don't sound like they're coming from a prize-winning used-car salesman instill a lot more confidence than someone who knows nothing about their car.

With all that said, I'll humor you, and in the context of my original comment (RE: UOA to back it up). If two cars WERE identical, except that one car followed 5k OCI (without UOA to back it up) and another ran 10k OCI (with a UOA provided and showing good results) I would 100% choose the vehicle that was backed up by UOA. I don't see UOA as providing conclusive proof that the engine is running perfectly, but I do believe it provides enough proof to show that the OIL handled the interval.

To end it all: what is happening to BITOG? It seems like we've regressed in the past several years. It used to be people pushing oils to their limits and sharing the results. There appear to be many members here who come here for everything other than oil, but post about how 5k OCI's are the bees knees, because it has always worked for them and no way, no how is anyone going to change their mind - anyone who opts for 10k+ intervals or TWO OFI's is a maniac with screw loose upstairs, bless their heart!
happy2.gif
 
OK people, LOL... Just follow the Honda Civics maintenance minder system on the dash. This actually seems to be very accurate and in my sons 2010 Civic EX it usually hits 10% at around 7.5K miles on the OCI and yes we use syn oils. Oh yea, my sons mileage is usually around 90% highway...
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Boss302fan
OK people, LOL... Just follow the Honda Civics maintenance minder system on the dash. This actually seems to be very accurate and in my sons 2010 Civic EX it usually hits 10% at around 7.5K miles on the OCI and yes we use syn oils. Oh yea, my sons mileage is usually around 90% highway...


Right, but the 2010 Civic (R18) doesn't call for synthetic, meaning the MM is not calibrated for synthetic. The generic requirement for oil leaves A LOT of room for extending intervals.
 
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: gathermewool


No need to beg - differ all you want, brother!
13.gif


To answer your question: nope, not even close!

If the two cars were identical, then they would have passed all other checks, which would include a review of receipts, a check of fluids and other conditions around the car, as well as a test drive. Selling for top dollar does make a difference, because people will expect more (at a certain price pointed it also keeps at bay the tire kickers and some low-ballers...or maybe not - some people have no shame!)

Case in point: I found a good price on a '13 Forester before I purchased my '15 Legacy. The price was average, but the guy said his wife drove it like a gramma, mostly high, yada yada yada. The maintenance records were fine, but the car was kind of beat, such as badly swirled paint, minor dog damage inside, etc. The thing that turned me off, was that when I checked the dipstick it was below the add mark halfway through the OCI. The tires were also @ 20# each. So, even though this guy's wife may have had the vehicle serviced every 5-6k miles, they did nothing in-between. That engine might have seen multiple thousands of miles with a sump 2+ quarts low.

Conversely, I ended up trading my STI (due to accident damage, which I disclosed) instead of selling it, but had I sold it privately I would have had UOA to show that intervals longer than most are comfortable with were perfectly fine. I was also tuned Cobb Stage 1 and data-logged religiously, so I could have shown data logs from 3rd-gear pulls and long high trips - every so often, I would setup my laptop to data-log over a couple of hrs during long drives, then condense, set rules and color-code the data for review. With STI's being owned by some who are numbnuts, I would personally have been very pleased to buy one from myself, with UOA and data logs to show things are good (barring the accident).


No begging I was being polite. You missed my point totally, then put a spin on it. In my example both vehicles were identical, in every regard, price, color, miles, condition, usage, etc. Only I didn't spell it out like I did now, I thought it was clear, sorry. Every single thing identical except the OCI 5K vs. 10K. So basically to you it doesn't matter, or you'd take the car that was serviced with 10K intervals? Sorry I don't take UOA's as Gospel, especially in this case where the terms of my point being made were spelled out and the OCI is twice as long.

And yes, I do know how to price a car and screen people to reduce tire kickers.
wink.gif


Maybe we should post up a poll and ask. No comments just follow the example I laid out above and answer 5K interval or a 10K interval.


The cheesy coffee emoji was meant to invoke silliness, to set the tone for my entire post (light-hearted). Your tone seems pretty harsh, but I'll assume I'm reading too much into it.

There are no two cars that are identical, so I don't really see the point of hypothesizing about it. It's like asking me to choose between two identical cars, except that one was driven 100% highway and another was driven 95% highway. It's meaningless. The answer to any of these hypothetical questions, even if you had some magical way to determine that two cars were even close to identical, is: "it depends."

In real lift, it's more like: Car A had 5k intervals and all other service done, but shows signs of a lot of under-body rust for its age. Another had less proof of maintenance, but was spotlessly detailed and all fluids look to be in good shape. Both cars run equally well. Which would you choose? That's not even including one of the most important factors to me - the seller. Does he or she have receipts, do they know about the car, can they answer basic questions, like how much consumption is there, what happened here? :points at potential issue: Why is the left rear tire 10# lower than the rest - is it a slow leaker or what? Satisfactory answers that don't sound like they're coming from a prize-winning used-car salesman instill a lot more confidence than someone who knows nothing about their car.

With all that said, I'll humor you, and in the context of my original comment (RE: UOA to back it up). If two cars WERE identical, except that one car followed 5k OCI (without UOA to back it up) and another ran 10k OCI (with a UOA provided and showing good results) I would 100% choose the vehicle that was backed up by UOA. I don't see UOA as providing conclusive proof that the engine is running perfectly, but I do believe it provides enough proof to show that the OIL handled the interval.

To end it all: what is happening to BITOG? It seems like we've regressed in the past several years. It used to be people pushing oils to their limits and sharing the results. There appear to be many members here who come here for everything other than oil, but post about how 5k OCI's are the bees knees, because it has always worked for them and no way, no how is anyone going to change their mind - anyone who opts for 10k+ intervals or TWO OFI's is a maniac with screw loose upstairs, bless their heart!
happy2.gif



Harsh, sorry that's the problem with writing sometimes and emoji's I guess. I took a defensive posture, because of the tone I perceived from your message, it's all good!
11.gif
I realize there are no 2 cars identical, I just needed to set the foundation for the critics that's all. Either way if I'm in the market for a used car and see two similar cars, close in price, miles and condition, etc.... and it comes down to how they were maintained the 5K OCI will win over the 10K OCI every time for me.

FTR I have no problem with people trying to stretch out an OCI, or every possible mile out of one. I find the threads interesting, and learn from them as well. I just felt like tossing in my
49.gif
a little differently this time.

Once again
11.gif
 
Been there … bought a used 2005 GMC (for my son) … there were two like it in play … similar unit/miles …

I bought one for two reasons:
1) Glove box was full of 3k oil change receipts alongside of tire warranty and factory paperwork - trans ATF at 40K
2) Had the original Goodyear tires with 59k and lots of rubber left (figured it was driven right and tires rotated etc)

He ran it to 120k trouble free and traded it on a new one …
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: gathermewool


No need to beg - differ all you want, brother!
13.gif


To answer your question: nope, not even close!

If the two cars were identical, then they would have passed all other checks, which would include a review of receipts, a check of fluids and other conditions around the car, as well as a test drive. Selling for top dollar does make a difference, because people will expect more (at a certain price pointed it also keeps at bay the tire kickers and some low-ballers...or maybe not - some people have no shame!)

Case in point: I found a good price on a '13 Forester before I purchased my '15 Legacy. The price was average, but the guy said his wife drove it like a gramma, mostly high, yada yada yada. The maintenance records were fine, but the car was kind of beat, such as badly swirled paint, minor dog damage inside, etc. The thing that turned me off, was that when I checked the dipstick it was below the add mark halfway through the OCI. The tires were also @ 20# each. So, even though this guy's wife may have had the vehicle serviced every 5-6k miles, they did nothing in-between. That engine might have seen multiple thousands of miles with a sump 2+ quarts low.

Conversely, I ended up trading my STI (due to accident damage, which I disclosed) instead of selling it, but had I sold it privately I would have had UOA to show that intervals longer than most are comfortable with were perfectly fine. I was also tuned Cobb Stage 1 and data-logged religiously, so I could have shown data logs from 3rd-gear pulls and long high trips - every so often, I would setup my laptop to data-log over a couple of hrs during long drives, then condense, set rules and color-code the data for review. With STI's being owned by some who are numbnuts, I would personally have been very pleased to buy one from myself, with UOA and data logs to show things are good (barring the accident).


No begging I was being polite. You missed my point totally, then put a spin on it. In my example both vehicles were identical, in every regard, price, color, miles, condition, usage, etc. Only I didn't spell it out like I did now, I thought it was clear, sorry. Every single thing identical except the OCI 5K vs. 10K. So basically to you it doesn't matter, or you'd take the car that was serviced with 10K intervals? Sorry I don't take UOA's as Gospel, especially in this case where the terms of my point being made were spelled out and the OCI is twice as long.

And yes, I do know how to price a car and screen people to reduce tire kickers.
wink.gif


Maybe we should post up a poll and ask. No comments just follow the example I laid out above and answer 5K interval or a 10K interval.


The cheesy coffee emoji was meant to invoke silliness, to set the tone for my entire post (light-hearted). Your tone seems pretty harsh, but I'll assume I'm reading too much into it.

There are no two cars that are identical, so I don't really see the point of hypothesizing about it. It's like asking me to choose between two identical cars, except that one was driven 100% highway and another was driven 95% highway. It's meaningless. The answer to any of these hypothetical questions, even if you had some magical way to determine that two cars were even close to identical, is: "it depends."

In real lift, it's more like: Car A had 5k intervals and all other service done, but shows signs of a lot of under-body rust for its age. Another had less proof of maintenance, but was spotlessly detailed and all fluids look to be in good shape. Both cars run equally well. Which would you choose? That's not even including one of the most important factors to me - the seller. Does he or she have receipts, do they know about the car, can they answer basic questions, like how much consumption is there, what happened here? :points at potential issue: Why is the left rear tire 10# lower than the rest - is it a slow leaker or what? Satisfactory answers that don't sound like they're coming from a prize-winning used-car salesman instill a lot more confidence than someone who knows nothing about their car.

With all that said, I'll humor you, and in the context of my original comment (RE: UOA to back it up). If two cars WERE identical, except that one car followed 5k OCI (without UOA to back it up) and another ran 10k OCI (with a UOA provided and showing good results) I would 100% choose the vehicle that was backed up by UOA. I don't see UOA as providing conclusive proof that the engine is running perfectly, but I do believe it provides enough proof to show that the OIL handled the interval.

To end it all: what is happening to BITOG? It seems like we've regressed in the past several years. It used to be people pushing oils to their limits and sharing the results. There appear to be many members here who come here for everything other than oil, but post about how 5k OCI's are the bees knees, because it has always worked for them and no way, no how is anyone going to change their mind - anyone who opts for 10k+ intervals or TWO OFI's is a maniac with screw loose upstairs, bless their heart!
happy2.gif



Harsh, sorry that's the problem with writing sometimes and emoji's I guess. I took a defensive posture, because of the tone I perceived from your message, it's all good!
11.gif
I realize there are no 2 cars identical, I just needed to set the foundation for the critics that's all. Either way if I'm in the market for a used car and see two similar cars, close in price, miles and condition, etc.... and it comes down to how they were maintained the 5K OCI will win over the 10K OCI every time for me.

FTR I have no problem with people trying to stretch out an OCI, or every possible mile out of one. I find the threads interesting, and learn from them as well. I just felt like tossing in my
49.gif
a little differently this time.

Once again
11.gif



Great reply, sir. I completely understand your point. I take your response to mean that an owner who extended his or her intervals and had UOA's to provide would win out over a vehicle that had none, but could prove maintenance at shorter intervals?
 
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
I take your response to mean that an owner who extended his or her intervals and had UOA's to provide would NOT win out over a vehicle that had none, but could prove maintenance at shorter intervals - you would choose the half-interval over the longer interval?


Sorry, meant to say the above ^^^
 
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
I take your response to mean that an owner who extended his or her intervals and had UOA's to provide would NOT win out over a vehicle that had none, but could prove maintenance at shorter intervals - you would choose the half-interval over the longer interval?


Sorry, meant to say the above ^^^


LOL Now I'm confused. Lets go back to me hypothetical case. We can even go real world, two identical vehicles similar condition, similar miles, same price, used the same way. One vehicle has its oil changed at 5K miles the other 10K miles. I'd take the car with the 5K interval, UOA's or not.
 
I would also take the car with the 5K OCI's and good service records. If you bring up OUA's most people are going to get confused and walk... LOL. But seriously, I like the 5K oci's but the overall condition of the car would be the deciding point for any purchase. I have owned over 60 plus cars/collector vehicles and am anal with oil changes. My thing is on new vehicles I usually change out the original oil at 3K and then go every 5-7K depending on the vehicle. When it gets some miles on it(80K plus, I usually then revert to 5K OCI's... Always using syn especially since most manufactures are now recommending syns in all new vehicles. On my Lexus vehicles I do once a year oil changes because I only drive them about 5K each.

Using a conventional oil VS Syn, I would still follow Honda's Maintenance Minder which in some cases will take you out to 8K... Why risk it for a few extra miles...
 
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Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
I take your response to mean that an owner who extended his or her intervals and had UOA's to provide would NOT win out over a vehicle that had none, but could prove maintenance at shorter intervals - you would choose the half-interval over the longer interval?


Sorry, meant to say the above ^^^


LOL Now I'm confused. Lets go back to me hypothetical case. We can even go real world, two identical vehicles similar condition, similar miles, same price, used the same way. One vehicle has its oil changed at 5K miles the other 10K miles. I'd take the car with the 5K interval, UOA's or not.


I just wanted to make sure you weren't leaving out the UOA variable. I find your answer very interesting. UOA would trump any interval, so long as the interval, oil and everything else made sense.
 
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
I take your response to mean that an owner who extended his or her intervals and had UOA's to provide would NOT win out over a vehicle that had none, but could prove maintenance at shorter intervals - you would choose the half-interval over the longer interval?


Sorry, meant to say the above ^^^


LOL Now I'm confused. Lets go back to me hypothetical case. We can even go real world, two identical vehicles similar condition, similar miles, same price, used the same way. One vehicle has its oil changed at 5K miles the other 10K miles. I'd take the car with the 5K interval, UOA's or not.


I just wanted to make sure you weren't leaving out the UOA variable. I find your answer very interesting. UOA would trump any interval, so long as the interval, oil and everything else made sense.


I suppose there's a few things I'd like to add.

He's not wrong in wanting to take the 5K. Most of these UOAs are not under the direction of a professional nor a certified lab with the proper tests. Blackstone can not be considered professional analysts, they're just a few people with a lab, which again is neither a professional nor certified lab.

2. Here is something I encountered while doing a major study and overhaul for an ambulance company in the midwest. I oversaw the oil program for 500+ ambulances. We found that when the ambulances went to 10,000 mile OCI's, all of a sudden, repairs were spiking through the roof. We later found out what many large OEMs like Lexus knew. Sometimes seeing the car is more important than the oil change itself. Because the ambulances were not being seen as often, lots of things were not being caught in time. After all, technicians are not computers. We ended up resorting to 7K OCIs on a cheaper oil and filter so they would continue to get checked out and diagnosed more often.
 
So consensus is:
M1Ep 0w20 oil is O.K. to 10K OCi, but KV100 viscosity uptick is Bk.Stn. error?

I'm not so sure.

recall the MSDS read this as a majority PAO REAL synthetic. Wonder of that's true anymore.
 
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
So consensus is:
M1Ep 0w20 oil is O.K. to 10K OCi, but KV100 viscosity uptick is Bk.Stn. error?

I'm not so sure.

recall the MSDS read this as a majority PAO REAL synthetic. Wonder of that's true anymore.


Check the MSDS? I don't believe it has changed, and I checked it quite recently.
 
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
So consensus is:
M1Ep 0w20 oil is O.K. to 10K OCi, but KV100 viscosity uptick is Bk.Stn. error?

That's an excellent summary, and I'm with you on your sentiments. Blackstone promised to re-run the sample and get back to me, but that didn't happen. Tomorrow is another day, as the saying goes.

The last change was something of a stash clearance, given that there were once two Civics plus a Prius for which I never performed an oil change. As such, the Civic is now filled with two quarts M1 0w20 AFE (older API SM) and two quarts of new M1 0w20 EP, plus a Mobil M1-110 (not the new "A" variant) filter. Given the new 550 mile per week highway commute, this oil is going to go at 0% on the OLM or 10k miles, whichever comes second. There will be no UOA on this sample as it wouldn't prove anything useful going forward.

Beyond this I am open to suggestions. The leading candidates are M1 5w20 following the OLM or 10k rule, or experimenting with the new "AP" stuff, also in 5w20. The experiment with 0w20 has produced no observable benefits, and I now favor the higher KV100 and HTHS values of the 5w20 oils.
 
Okay - reopening an old thread here. Blackstone did get back to me saying they ran the sample again and that there was no significant difference in viscosity. We have three samples here and the original consensus was that the final sample was erroneous. Actually the odds are one in three that the first two were.

The operating conditions of this vehicle changed pretty substantially just prior to this oil change. The car now communtes over 500 miles per week. At the last oil change I used up two quarts of Mobil 1 0w20 EP, and two very old quarts of Mobil 1 0w20 AFE. We are talking vintage 2011 AFE in single quart bottles. I was clearing out the stash knowing how many miles this vehicle would accrue.

Since then the vehicle has been driven 5000 miles and has used some oil. In another stash cleaning maneuver I topped up with 1/2 QT old SL rated Mobil 1 5w30 high mileage. Oil use stabilized after that; it hasn't moved down at all in the last 1000 miles. The OLM is just dropped to 40% after more than 5000 miles.

Moving forward I am debating 0w20 in M1 EP vs AP. This vehicle should accumulate 20K miles in 40 weeks or less. The math seems to favor sticking with EP for 15K miles over 30 weeks. Any opinions?
 
DanielLD .If lube showed thickening ,will Isolubles climb & Flashpoint head South .Indicating VII being depleted,base oil will stay constant most of the time showing ADDPACK depletion . I am not fond of high VII period .But thats what Manu specified in this instance.My take would be how long I am prepared to keep said Car .
 
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