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Do oil filters "cough up" captured contaminants... #4625034
01/05/18 03:33 PM
01/05/18 03:33 PM
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,029
CA, USA
paulri Offline OP
paulri  Offline OP

Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,029
CA, USA
... when the engine is started again?

I came across this PDF a day or two ago (quite possibly linked to by somebody here on BITOG, but I forgot), and on page 6, it describes how particle counts indicate much higher numbers of contaminants in the oil, after a restart.

You can see the document here: https://www.hyprofiltration.com/clientuploads/directory/Products/PDFs/FE-PUB/DFE.pdf

Now my question is--is this related to oil filters for passenger cars? Or is this something that happens only with filters for other engines?

FWIW, I couldn't find any dating information in the text of the file itself, but when I opened the file up in my PDF reader, the file properties said it was created in 2009.

Last edited by paulri; 01/05/18 03:36 PM.

2005 Toyota Sienna LE; 163,000 miles
2006 Toyota Highlander Hybrid 118,000 miles
Re: Do oil filters "cough up" captured contaminants... [Re: paulri] #4625040
01/05/18 03:37 PM
01/05/18 03:37 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 6,157
Fort Lauderdale, FL
DoubleWasp Offline
DoubleWasp  Offline

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Fort Lauderdale, FL
I suppose it's not outrageous that contaminants that are captured behind the filter media, but not in it could come loose and be briefly circulated if the filter bypasses.

Does it actually happen? No idea.


07 Lincoln Navigator M1 0w-40/FU
68 Charger R/T / Supercharged 440 VR1/DBL7349
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Re: Do oil filters "cough up" captured contaminants... [Re: DoubleWasp] #4625042
01/05/18 03:43 PM
01/05/18 03:43 PM
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,029
CA, USA
paulri Offline OP
paulri  Offline OP

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Its my understanding of those researchers, that they are talking about this phenomenon happening when the engine restarts, not when the filter goes into bypass mode. I'm not denying you can get dirty oil in bypass mode (depending on the location of the bypass valve)---only clarifying what the document is talking about.


2005 Toyota Sienna LE; 163,000 miles
2006 Toyota Highlander Hybrid 118,000 miles
Re: Do oil filters "cough up" captured contaminants... [Re: paulri] #4625078
01/05/18 04:13 PM
01/05/18 04:13 PM
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ZeeOSix Offline
ZeeOSix  Offline

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Originally Posted By: paulri
Its my understanding of those researchers, that they are talking about this phenomenon happening when the engine restarts, not when the filter goes into bypass mode. I'm not denying you can get dirty oil in bypass mode (depending on the location of the bypass valve)---only clarifying what the document is talking about.

Interesting article. Cold starts create more delta-p across the media due to the thicker oil. Not unreasonable that some captured particles in the media get dislodged by the higher delta-p, especially if there's a short sudden delta-p spike on initial start-up.

Same thing basically happens as an oil filter gets loaded up and the delta-p across it increases with time. That's why the graph by Purolator/M+H shows that the efficiency decreasing with time & loading, until the efficiency shoots up towards the end when it's really getting loaded/clogged and close to the bypass valve setting.


Re: Do oil filters "cough up" captured contaminants... [Re: paulri] #4625097
01/05/18 04:29 PM
01/05/18 04:29 PM
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Posts: 1,029
CA, USA
paulri Offline OP
paulri  Offline OP

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Z06, I sent you a pm about that study you linked to.


2005 Toyota Sienna LE; 163,000 miles
2006 Toyota Highlander Hybrid 118,000 miles
Re: Do oil filters "cough up" captured contaminants... [Re: paulri] #4625103
01/05/18 04:38 PM
01/05/18 04:38 PM
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ZeeOSix Offline
ZeeOSix  Offline

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Originally Posted By: paulri
Z06, I sent you a pm about that study you linked to.


Got it, this thread might be a good one to expand on the Puro/M+H paper too since it seems somewhat related. Could link the original Puro/M+H paper where my snip-it came from.

Re: Do oil filters "cough up" captured contaminants... [Re: ZeeOSix] #4625163
01/05/18 05:40 PM
01/05/18 05:40 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 7,997
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline

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Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: paulri
Z06, I sent you a pm about that study you linked to.


Got it, this thread might be a good one to expand on the Puro/M+H paper too since it seems somewhat related. Could link the original Puro/M+H paper where my snip-it came from.


That would be great,

seems like a lot of info is missing.


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: Do oil filters "cough up" captured contaminants... [Re: paulri] #4625176
01/05/18 05:46 PM
01/05/18 05:46 PM
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,029
CA, USA
paulri Offline OP
paulri  Offline OP

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actually the paper i linked to in the op is different, with a different thesis so i,ll link to it in another thread when i look up what z06 mentioned in a pm.


2005 Toyota Sienna LE; 163,000 miles
2006 Toyota Highlander Hybrid 118,000 miles
Re: Do oil filters "cough up" captured contaminants... [Re: paulri] #4625183
01/05/18 05:51 PM
01/05/18 05:51 PM
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Posts: 3,120
Tennessee
goodtimes Offline
goodtimes  Offline

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Tennessee
Synthetic fibers are slick too, nothing sticks and all washes off. Every time the car is started it's like getting a brand new filter. That's why they can last so long. UFO

Re: Do oil filters "cough up" captured contaminants... [Re: paulri] #4625217
01/05/18 06:24 PM
01/05/18 06:24 PM
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ZeeOSix Offline
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Originally Posted By: paulri
actually the paper i linked to in the op is different, with a different thesis so i,ll link to it in another thread when i look up what z06 mentioned in a pm.


The Purolator/M+H paper is somewhat related to the original post link in that captured debris can get forced off the media from delta-p and oil flow.

Re: Do oil filters "cough up" captured contaminants... [Re: goodtimes] #4625225
01/05/18 06:33 PM
01/05/18 06:33 PM
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ZeeOSix Offline
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Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Synthetic fibers are slick too, nothing sticks and all washes off. Every time the car is started it's like getting a brand new filter. That's why they can last so long.


The gist of the paper is that it's the media design that ensures solid capture during DFE testing, not necessarily the media material. They talk about their "G8 Dualglass" media (note 'dual') performing better in DFE testing vs other glass media filters. Don't see where they tested any full cellulose media, so can't conclude anything on how they would perform in DFE testing.


Re: Do oil filters "cough up" captured contaminants... [Re: paulri] #4625227
01/05/18 06:38 PM
01/05/18 06:38 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
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Ca.
UncleDave Offline
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Sure it happens all the time when you have accumulated bigger particles and debris that only hold against the media with pressure, and probably end case pieces not fully embedded.

That gunk falls to the bottom

-the heaviest of which is right next to the bypass in a dome down bypass down scenario.


UD


Uncle Dave
Cat 3126/2 MB3500/Titan/RX400H/17 Ridgeline
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Re: Do oil filters "cough up" captured contaminants... [Re: paulri] #4625229
01/05/18 06:39 PM
01/05/18 06:39 PM
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ZeeOSix Offline
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Here's the document where the graph I posted came from: LINK

Re: Do oil filters "cough up" captured contaminants... [Re: UncleDave] #4625231
01/05/18 06:42 PM
01/05/18 06:42 PM
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ZeeOSix Offline
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Originally Posted By: UncleDave

Sure it happens all the time when you have accumulated bigger particles and debris that only hold against the media with pressure, and probably end case pieces not fully embedded.

That gunk falls to the bottom

-the heaviest of which is right next to the bypass in a dome down bypass down scenario.

UD


I think the paper is talking about captured debris being dislodged from the media, not debris that gets swept through a bypass valve. Same kind of debris shedding from the media talked about in the Purolator/M+H paper.

Re: Do oil filters "cough up" captured contaminants... [Re: paulri] #4625233
01/05/18 06:44 PM
01/05/18 06:44 PM
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Ca.
UncleDave Offline
UncleDave  Offline

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superb info in that link.

UD

Last edited by UncleDave; 01/05/18 06:45 PM.

Uncle Dave
Cat 3126/2 MB3500/Titan/RX400H/17 Ridgeline
700HP V10/ 725HP BBC/ Raptor 700/ KFX450/ YZ250/Onan 8K/ Cat3011C
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