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What if both pilots become incapacitated? #4622168
01/02/18 09:06 PM
01/02/18 09:06 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,443
Washington State (East)
Blaze Offline OP
Blaze  Offline OP
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,443
Washington State (East)
Or a "ghost plane". Interesting case.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yalp4Lp0apI

Was wondering if the control towers (air traffic controllers) are trained for this very scenario where both pilots are incapacitated and possibly guide a civilian into possibly safely landing the plane? Or quickly find someone that can. Assuming someone (passenger) on board has survived.


Re: What if both pilots become incapacitated? [Re: Blaze] #4622176
01/02/18 09:12 PM
01/02/18 09:12 PM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 13,534
Chicago, IL
dparm Offline
dparm  Offline
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 13,534
Chicago, IL
Go rewatch the film Airplane!, as this was already explained in detail:



2017 Chevrolet Corvette Grand Sport
Re: What if both pilots become incapacitated? [Re: Blaze] #4622192
01/02/18 09:31 PM
01/02/18 09:31 PM
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 107
ST Augustine, FL
exShuttlemech Offline
exShuttlemech  Offline
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 107
ST Augustine, FL
Payne Stewart.


2010 Rav4 4cyl 131K QSUD 0W20 Baldwin bypass filter
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Re: What if both pilots become incapacitated? [Re: Blaze] #4622193
01/02/18 09:33 PM
01/02/18 09:33 PM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,997
MN
oil_film_movies Offline
oil_film_movies  Offline
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,997
MN
A flight attendant almost saved this 737 in 2005:

"Two F-16 fighter aircraft from the Hellenic Air Force 111th Combat Wing were scrambled from Nea Anchialos Air Base to establish visual contact.[19] They intercepted the passenger jet at 11:24 and observed that the first officer was slumped motionless at the controls and the captain's seat was empty.[20] They also reported that oxygen masks were dangling in the passenger cabin.[18]

At 11:49, flight attendant Andreas Prodromou entered the cockpit and sat down in the captain's seat, having remained conscious by using a portable oxygen supply.[21][22] Prodromou held a UK Commercial Pilot License,[23] but was not qualified to fly the Boeing 737. Crash investigators concluded that Prodromou's experience was insufficient for him to gain control of the aircraft under the circumstances.[22] Prodromou waved at the F16s very briefly, but almost as soon as he entered the cockpit, the left engine flamed out due to fuel exhaustion[22] and the plane left the holding pattern and started to descend.[24] Ten minutes after the loss of power from the left engine, the right engine also flamed out,[24] and just before 12:04 the aircraft crashed into hills near Grammatiko, 40 km (25 mi) from Athens, killing all 121 passengers and crew on-board.[24]"


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Flight_522

Last edited by oil_film_movies; 01/02/18 09:35 PM.
Re: What if both pilots become incapacitated? [Re: exShuttlemech] #4622198
01/02/18 09:41 PM
01/02/18 09:41 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,258
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,258
Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: exShuttlemech
Payne Stewart.


That plane crashed just 2 miles from my friend's house in South Dakota.


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: What if both pilots become incapacitated? [Re: oil_film_movies] #4622202
01/02/18 09:44 PM
01/02/18 09:44 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,258
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,258
Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
but almost as soon as he entered the cockpit, the left engine flamed out due to fuel exhaustion...., the right engine also flamed out,


If only he'd been an hour sooner!

A plane is just a glider without fuel. He was in a REALLY LOUSY situation!!


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: What if both pilots become incapacitated? [Re: Blaze] #4622209
01/02/18 09:51 PM
01/02/18 09:51 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,836
Texas
Bud Offline
Bud  Offline
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,836
Texas
If you are on the plane, KYAG.


2016 Honda Pilot EX-L with NAV.....Mobil 1 0w20 AFE and Ultra XG7317
Re: What if both pilots become incapacitated? [Re: Blaze] #4622217
01/02/18 10:01 PM
01/02/18 10:01 PM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,322
Somewhere
itguy08 Offline
itguy08  Offline
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,322
Somewhere
With the autopilots of today could they talk a civilian through enabling it and putting in the coordinates of the nearest airport and have the plane do the rest?

Re: What if both pilots become incapacitated? [Re: Blaze] #4622226
01/02/18 10:09 PM
01/02/18 10:09 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,809
Virginia Beach
Astro14 Offline
Astro14  Offline
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,809
Virginia Beach
Originally Posted By: Blaze
Or a "ghost plane". Interesting case.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yalp4Lp0apI

Was wondering if the control towers (air traffic controllers) are trained for this very scenario where both pilots are incapacitated and possibly guide a civilian into possibly safely landing the plane? Or quickly find someone that can. Assuming someone (passenger) on board has survived.



The air traffic controllers don't know enough about the airplane to talk anyone through a landing. They know how to tell pilots where to go...but not how to fly that model of plane...so, no...

If you could get someone who knew the airplane really well, perhaps that person would be able to talk a person through a landing, but trust me, after talking folks through landing a 757 and 747 simulator, without being able to see what that person is doing, it's going to be impossible.

Imagine talking someone through surgery, except that you don't know surgery, and you can't see what they're doing...

Most folks wouldn't be able to operate the radio well enough to talk to anyone on the ground.


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Re: What if both pilots become incapacitated? [Re: Blaze] #4622230
01/02/18 10:13 PM
01/02/18 10:13 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,809
Virginia Beach
Astro14 Offline
Astro14  Offline
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,809
Virginia Beach
Hereís my airplane. See the radio management panel?





Iíll wait...


Sorry, BITOG turned it 90 degrees, but I'm not certain that makes any difference...

Last edited by Astro14; 01/02/18 10:15 PM.

32 Packard 15W40
02 Volvo V70 T5 0W40 M1
02 Volvo V70 XC 0W40 Edge
05 MB S600 0W40 M1
16 Tundra 1794 5W30 Pennzoil Ultra
Re: What if both pilots become incapacitated? [Re: itguy08] #4622232
01/02/18 10:15 PM
01/02/18 10:15 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,809
Virginia Beach
Astro14 Offline
Astro14  Offline
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,809
Virginia Beach
Originally Posted By: itguy08
With the autopilots of today could they talk a civilian through enabling it and putting in the coordinates of the nearest airport and have the plane do the rest?


No... See the picture above.

Let me know 1. when you're ready to tune the radio and 2. to what frequency you would like to tune it.

When you've got that figured out, installing an approach and configuring the airplane (how are you with flap reference speeds?) for the automatic landing is not going to be as easy as the radios...and there isn't any air traffic controller that knows enough about the Boeing 767 to be able to help you fly it while a real pilot is found.


32 Packard 15W40
02 Volvo V70 T5 0W40 M1
02 Volvo V70 XC 0W40 Edge
05 MB S600 0W40 M1
16 Tundra 1794 5W30 Pennzoil Ultra
Re: What if both pilots become incapacitated? [Re: Astro14] #4622233
01/02/18 10:18 PM
01/02/18 10:18 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,844
Ontario Canada
cjcride Offline
cjcride  Offline
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,844
Ontario Canada
I bet it's in the first row of panels just below the windscreen.

PS Nice looking Office

Last edited by cjcride; 01/02/18 10:19 PM.
Re: What if both pilots become incapacitated? [Re: cjcride] #4622236
01/02/18 10:24 PM
01/02/18 10:24 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,809
Virginia Beach
Astro14 Offline
Astro14  Offline
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,809
Virginia Beach
Originally Posted By: cjcride
I bet it's in the first row of panels just below the windscreen.

PS Nice looking Office


It is a great office, but the radio management panels are on the center console, just above the audio control panel.

One tunes the radios (we've got about 8, including navigation, but excluding SATCOM) and the other allows you to listen, or broadcast on one of those radios.

So, you've got to tune the radio, and then set up your ACP to be able to talk/hear.


32 Packard 15W40
02 Volvo V70 T5 0W40 M1
02 Volvo V70 XC 0W40 Edge
05 MB S600 0W40 M1
16 Tundra 1794 5W30 Pennzoil Ultra
Re: What if both pilots become incapacitated? [Re: Blaze] #4622237
01/02/18 10:24 PM
01/02/18 10:24 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 33,104
ME
eljefino Offline
eljefino  Offline
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 33,104
ME
They'll con the civilian into a water landing crash away from ground population.

Re: What if both pilots become incapacitated? [Re: eljefino] #4622246
01/02/18 10:30 PM
01/02/18 10:30 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,809
Virginia Beach
Astro14 Offline
Astro14  Offline
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,809
Virginia Beach
Originally Posted By: eljefino
They'll con the civilian into a water landing crash away from ground population.


If the civilian is able to figure out how to talk to someone outside the airplane...which I consider extremely unlikely...then perhaps someone could talk them into flying the airplane out over the water. But since they won't be able to talk to anyone, I think the point is moot.

Your best bet is an experienced pilot, riding in the back.

The flight attendant who "almost saved" Helios 525 held a commercial license, and couldn't figure out how to get the airplane out of a holding pattern, much less descend the airplane...even with that commercial license...

Look, if you can't figure out how to make it go left/right OR up/down, your chances of actually landing it are, well...zero...


32 Packard 15W40
02 Volvo V70 T5 0W40 M1
02 Volvo V70 XC 0W40 Edge
05 MB S600 0W40 M1
16 Tundra 1794 5W30 Pennzoil Ultra
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