I'll just leave this here...
Winter tires on dry pavement
- Thread starter WANG
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I have to say I was at least a little surprised at the results watching this. I like alot of this guys videos. In my experience summer performance tires absolutely lose traction below say 45 degrees. In my Mustang on extremely cold days the rear end would spin like it was on ice and the tires were rock hard. I guess I never really needed to panic brake to test braking distances... part of me wonders if his summer tires were somewhat warm from driving to where he tested them. I have also driven front wheel drive cars with summer tires in freezing temps and hard cornering is not really possible then either. Not saying his results aren't valid but I was surprised is all.
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I got caught with my newish BFG sport Comp2's in 0C wet weather and they worked pretty well really. I pushed them a little bit and while they certainly had less traction than when warm, they still weren't unsafe.
On clean dry pavement, siping and lots of tread depth is a liability that even the softer winter rubber compound can't overcome. I suspect if you shaved the winter tires just above the depth of the winter rubber, they would be closer to the summer tires, but new winter tires with lots of sharp corners to wear off, aren't going to do well on pavement.
A major issue is that some performance tires actually crack in moderate cold like -7C. So running performance rubber in my area even into November isn't a good idea as the odd night can hit that temperature.
On clean dry pavement, siping and lots of tread depth is a liability that even the softer winter rubber compound can't overcome. I suspect if you shaved the winter tires just above the depth of the winter rubber, they would be closer to the summer tires, but new winter tires with lots of sharp corners to wear off, aren't going to do well on pavement.
A major issue is that some performance tires actually crack in moderate cold like -7C. So running performance rubber in my area even into November isn't a good idea as the odd night can hit that temperature.
Originally Posted By: HemiHawk
I have to say I was at least a little surprised at the results watching this. I like alot of this guys videos. In my experience summer performance tires absolutely lose traction below say 45 degrees. In my Mustang on extremely cold days the rear end would spin like it was on ice and the tires were rock hard. I guess I never really needed to panic brake to test braking distances... part of me wonders if his summer tires were somewhat warm from driving to where he tested them. I have also driven front wheel drive cars with summer tires in freezing temps and hard cornering is not really possible then either. Not saying his results aren't valid but I was surprised is all.
My experience is pretty consistent with HemiHawk's, so I was surprised by the results as well. For my area, I think that summers and all-seasons ("no seasons" lol) would probably be the ideal setup. It absolutely gets too cold for summer tires, but winter tires would not make a lot of sense, either.
I have to say I was at least a little surprised at the results watching this. I like alot of this guys videos. In my experience summer performance tires absolutely lose traction below say 45 degrees. In my Mustang on extremely cold days the rear end would spin like it was on ice and the tires were rock hard. I guess I never really needed to panic brake to test braking distances... part of me wonders if his summer tires were somewhat warm from driving to where he tested them. I have also driven front wheel drive cars with summer tires in freezing temps and hard cornering is not really possible then either. Not saying his results aren't valid but I was surprised is all.
My experience is pretty consistent with HemiHawk's, so I was surprised by the results as well. For my area, I think that summers and all-seasons ("no seasons" lol) would probably be the ideal setup. It absolutely gets too cold for summer tires, but winter tires would not make a lot of sense, either.
I'm a bit surprised too.
Some winter tires are better than others on dry pavement. As that was by far my most common driving condition I bought Dunlops that (at that time anyway) were the top performers on dry pavement. I likely sacrificed a bit of ice and snow handling capacity. I didn't notice much difference going from summer tires to winter tires (typically on a cold winter day) but I did notice that the summer tires handled better and made less road noise (typically on a warmer spring day). I tended to push my (all season high performance) summer tires as far as possible into the winter but was a bit slower to change in the spring.
One other point is that his summer tires were a bit worn and his winter tires were almost new (except for 1 day's wear). Presumably worn tires are similar to shaved tires and shaved tires have better performance on dry pavement. Note that I'm not advocating shaving winter tires to optimize dry pavement performance; I expect that lots of tread would have an advantage in snow.
Some winter tires are better than others on dry pavement. As that was by far my most common driving condition I bought Dunlops that (at that time anyway) were the top performers on dry pavement. I likely sacrificed a bit of ice and snow handling capacity. I didn't notice much difference going from summer tires to winter tires (typically on a cold winter day) but I did notice that the summer tires handled better and made less road noise (typically on a warmer spring day). I tended to push my (all season high performance) summer tires as far as possible into the winter but was a bit slower to change in the spring.
One other point is that his summer tires were a bit worn and his winter tires were almost new (except for 1 day's wear). Presumably worn tires are similar to shaved tires and shaved tires have better performance on dry pavement. Note that I'm not advocating shaving winter tires to optimize dry pavement performance; I expect that lots of tread would have an advantage in snow.
My Mich xice are like night and day on snow or slush compared to all seasons
Originally Posted By: andrewp1998
My Mich xice are like night and day on snow or slush compared to all seasons
They really wouldn't have a reason to exist if they weren't any better than all seasons in winter conditions, would they?
My Mich xice are like night and day on snow or slush compared to all seasons
They really wouldn't have a reason to exist if they weren't any better than all seasons in winter conditions, would they?
He should've tested performance winter tires like the Pilot Alpin or Pirelli Sottozero
Originally Posted By: krzyss
Is it mentioned what winter tires were tested?
Krzys
In the description listed on the actual YT page (t get there, click the word YouTube in the video) he says the winter tires are the Xi3, and the summer tires are the Bridgestone Potenza RE-71R
Originally Posted By: krzyss
Is it mentioned what winter tires were tested?
Krzys
In the description listed on the actual YT page (t get there, click the word YouTube in the video) he says the winter tires are the Xi3, and the summer tires are the Bridgestone Potenza RE-71R
He picked wrong winter tires to test on dry ;-)
I wonder what would be the numbers for performance winter tires.
I have Xi3 and they are not confidence inspiring in dry or wet when driven spirtedly.
They are very nice in ice and snow and during regular driving.
Krzys
I wonder what would be the numbers for performance winter tires.
I have Xi3 and they are not confidence inspiring in dry or wet when driven spirtedly.
They are very nice in ice and snow and during regular driving.
Krzys
I appreciate the effort.
Watched the video until the end when he mentions that the winter tires were narrower by 2cm on the rear. That's too much of a difference along with the change in sidewall height(aspect ratio) on a well balanced vehicle(front to rear) to determine an accurate difference between summer and snow tires.
Watched the video until the end when he mentions that the winter tires were narrower by 2cm on the rear. That's too much of a difference along with the change in sidewall height(aspect ratio) on a well balanced vehicle(front to rear) to determine an accurate difference between summer and snow tires.
I have a crackpot theory.
Braking generates a lot of friction, more so than going around a corner. You want hard tread blocks for straight line braking hot or cold.
But you want the tread surface to be just soft to provide enough grip regardless of the temperature.
While the summer tires might feel slippery during hard cornering on a cold road, the tread surface heats up very quick
during a very quick stop as the tread surface heats up near instantly to provide maximum grip.
The winter tires are too soft on cold dry pavement during max brake applications and lose friction, plus the flexible tread blocks
and less surface area equates for a longer stopping distance.
Braking generates a lot of friction, more so than going around a corner. You want hard tread blocks for straight line braking hot or cold.
But you want the tread surface to be just soft to provide enough grip regardless of the temperature.
While the summer tires might feel slippery during hard cornering on a cold road, the tread surface heats up very quick
during a very quick stop as the tread surface heats up near instantly to provide maximum grip.
The winter tires are too soft on cold dry pavement during max brake applications and lose friction, plus the flexible tread blocks
and less surface area equates for a longer stopping distance.
Results dont surprise me, but im more concerned about stopping on ice, snow or slush. If you dont get snow or ice, u have a good argument. I can deal with longer dry stopping distances since I dont drive all that fast anyways.
Originally Posted By: WANG
Originally Posted By: andrewp1998
My Mich xice are like night and day on snow or slush compared to all seasons
They really wouldn't have a reason to exist if they weren't any better than all seasons in winter conditions, would they?
The difference is really dramatic though. They supposedly had some kind of technological breakthrough in the early 90s. I can believe it, because the Blizzaks are better than the studded tires I had in the 1980s.
Originally Posted By: andrewp1998
My Mich xice are like night and day on snow or slush compared to all seasons
They really wouldn't have a reason to exist if they weren't any better than all seasons in winter conditions, would they?
The difference is really dramatic though. They supposedly had some kind of technological breakthrough in the early 90s. I can believe it, because the Blizzaks are better than the studded tires I had in the 1980s.
Originally Posted By: skyactiv
I have a crackpot theory.
Braking generates a lot of friction, more so than going around a corner. You want hard tread blocks for straight line braking hot or cold.
But you want the tread surface to be just soft to provide enough grip regardless of the temperature.
While the summer tires might feel slippery during hard cornering on a cold road, the tread surface heats up very quick
during a very quick stop as the tread surface heats up near instantly to provide maximum grip.
The winter tires are too soft on cold dry pavement during max brake applications and lose friction, plus the flexible tread blocks
and less surface area equates for a longer stopping distance.
Well you did say 'crackpot'.
I don't see the tread heating up that much more or faster on cold pavement on a 3 second stop than if I were pushing it thru a long corner. It's more what we all agree about soft pliable winter compounds (Blizzak) being too soft like a gum eraser to be able to generate as high braking / cornering loads on cold DRY pavement compared to even hockey puck summer compounds. But on cold wet pavement I'd say winters will have more predictable handling than slick summers. So if your winter is mid Atlantic medium or such I'd go for an A/S compromise if you can't stand being gentle on the winters. Performance winters may be less of an issue, but hard driving will still wear them out fast.
I have a crackpot theory.
Braking generates a lot of friction, more so than going around a corner. You want hard tread blocks for straight line braking hot or cold.
But you want the tread surface to be just soft to provide enough grip regardless of the temperature.
While the summer tires might feel slippery during hard cornering on a cold road, the tread surface heats up very quick
during a very quick stop as the tread surface heats up near instantly to provide maximum grip.
The winter tires are too soft on cold dry pavement during max brake applications and lose friction, plus the flexible tread blocks
and less surface area equates for a longer stopping distance.
Well you did say 'crackpot'.
While we're all aware of the performance limitations and cautions of using Summer tires in cold temps, here's an actual warning disclaimer about compound cracking due to excessive cold temperature stiffness (my bold):
From Tire Rack's description on the Michelin Pilot Sport 4S, https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Michelin&tireModel=Pilot+Sport+4S
Note: Tires exposed to temperatures of 20 degrees F (-7 degrees C) or lower must be permitted to gradually return to temperatures of at least 40 degrees F (5 degrees C) for at least 24 hours before they are flexed in any manner, such as by adjusting inflation pressures, mounting them on wheels or using them to support, roll or drive a vehicle.
Flexing of the specialized rubber compounds used in Max Performance Summer tires during cold-weather use can result in irreversible compound cracking. Compound cracking is not a warrantable condition because it occurs as the result of improper use or storage, tires exhibiting compound cracking must be replaced.
From Tire Rack's description on the Michelin Pilot Sport 4S, https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Michelin&tireModel=Pilot+Sport+4S
Note: Tires exposed to temperatures of 20 degrees F (-7 degrees C) or lower must be permitted to gradually return to temperatures of at least 40 degrees F (5 degrees C) for at least 24 hours before they are flexed in any manner, such as by adjusting inflation pressures, mounting them on wheels or using them to support, roll or drive a vehicle.
Flexing of the specialized rubber compounds used in Max Performance Summer tires during cold-weather use can result in irreversible compound cracking. Compound cracking is not a warrantable condition because it occurs as the result of improper use or storage, tires exhibiting compound cracking must be replaced.
At -4C, the rubber is going to be above the temperature required for summer tires to work properly after driving for a little while, so the video is kind of silly. I drove for over a decade in the UK with summer tires and never had a problem on dry roads, because it never got much colder than that.
Now try it again at -40C.
We test-drove a Civic at that temperature with the OEM tires, and it didn't want to stop, didn't want to start, and didn't want to go around corners. We bought the same model of Civic later that year, put winter tires on it, and it drives fine at those kind of temperatures.
Now try it again at -40C.
We test-drove a Civic at that temperature with the OEM tires, and it didn't want to stop, didn't want to start, and didn't want to go around corners. We bought the same model of Civic later that year, put winter tires on it, and it drives fine at those kind of temperatures.
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