2009 Jetta TDI - LM Top Tec 4200 - 10K mi OCI

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This was 4 years ago, and my first UOA. I was doing oil changes @ 6-7k miles, then I decided to try 10k w/ sampling as me and my mechanic thought 10k was a bad idea. I am the original owner and this was my 5th oil change on this car.

Never did 10k again. I still use Top Tec 4200 as I got a good deal on a 20L jug, but when I run out I'm going to try something else. I've been following 7k OCIs since then.

Mostly posting this as a PSA for members who have TDIs and think a 507 oil will last to 10k. Don't risk it. Ignore the 5w40 in the description, it is an error.


 
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Originally Posted By: Bailes1992
In the UK the VAG allow 18,000mile OCI's on a 504/507 oil so I'm amazed to see such a bad UOA at 10k.


You have higher quality fuel with less sulfer, right? If so, there would be less TBN depletion @ 18K.
 
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TDI engines have always thrown a lot more Fe than most other engines for the exposure. But this UOA seems higher than most.

What's the status of it now? Have you UOA'd since this one FOUR YEARS AGO?
 
I installed a magnetic drain plug after this was done. Fe, even if it is detected, won't be representative of the sample.

Is there a way to remove the ferrous material from the magnet and re-introduce it into the drained oil? Then I could mix it up really well and then grab a sample.

Has anybody ever tried this before?
 
Is Top Tec speced for 10,000 mile OCIs? Not knocking LM oil but just inquisitive. Im gonna get a UOA on my wifes Jetta here when she hits 10,000 miles on this OCI to see what we need to do as for moving forward with mileage to change oil/filter. Currently running Castrol Edge 0W40 with a Fram Ultra. She presently has about 4500 miles on this oil & filter combo. Changed that FF fill out at 3750 miles & this is our first oil change besides the FF.
 
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Yeah, and the oil formulation probably hasn't changed at all in four years either...
smirk.gif


No details on usage also makes it hard to determine how stressed the oil was... if this was city driving with lots of idling, it may make more sense, on both wear metals and TBN.
 
Originally Posted By: thorromig
Is Top Tec speced for 10,000 mile OCIs? Not knocking LM oil but just inquisitive. Im gonna get a UOA on my wifes Jetta here when she hits 10,000 miles on this OCI to see what we need to do as for moving forward with mileage to change oil/filter. Currently running Castrol Edge 0W40 with a Fram Ultra. She presently has about 4500 miles on this oil & filter combo. Changed that FF fill out at 3750 miles & this is our first oil change besides the FF.


Well, it's an approved low SAPS 507 oil so it should last 10K miles. It's also expensive. The viscosity was OK but it didn't hold up to the recommended OCI.
 
Originally Posted By: SubieRubyRoo
Yeah, and the oil formulation probably hasn't changed at all in four years either...
smirk.gif


No details on usage also makes it hard to determine how stressed the oil was... if this was city driving with lots of idling, it may make more sense, on both wear metals and TBN.


60% freeway and 40% city. I always used Chevron Diesel as it gave me the best MPGs. I don't abuse my cars.
 
I can see why these engines are having sludge and wear issues with a lot of miles on them, especially if theyre going 10k. Id cut it down to 7500 miles to play it safe, like you were doing. Only adds one more per year, and its cheap insurance.
 
Originally Posted By: Audios
... and its cheap insurance.


And there it is; the infamous BITOG claim that if something is good, more of it most always must be better, somehow ...


Is there any proof that a more frequent OCI is going to reduce the wear rates? Or improve the contamination rates?

Just because he OCIs more often in your plan, does he get less wear per 1k miles?
Explain to me please, how changing lube more often makes the engine create less soot.

There's a difference between the magnitude of a characteristic in a UOA, versus the rate at which something occurs!

An engine that has 10ppm of Fe in 5k miles has the same wear rate as an engine that has 20ppm in 10k miles.
An engine that gives 3 grams of soot in 5k miles is the same as one that makes 6 grams of soot in 10k miles.

There's no proof that shorter OCIs reduce wear in "normal" use. In fact, quite the opposite is true; longer OCIs (within moderation of normalcy) actually lower the wear rates. In studying more than 12,000 UOAs, I've never seen a "normal" condition have less wear by changing lube more often. Just does not happen my friends. The VAST majority of data shows that longer OCIs reduce wear rates.


Let's use an analogy here ...
Consider an older couple that live in a small home, and they have a maid come in once a week to clean dishes and do 4 loads of laundry, and she takes 8 hours for the job one day a week (1 day a week for 8 hours). Now, if we cut her daily time in half, but sent her in twice as often (2x a week at 4 hours each), she'd still be doing the same amount of laundry and dirty dishes, because the RATE of contamination is the same. How often you send in the "cleaner" has no affect on who makes the dirty stuff. However if we altered the rate at which dirty stuff is created (send in the grand-kids for a two week visit), then the RATE of CONTAMINATION would likely make for more frequent cleaning to attain the same level of "clean".

How often you take out the trash does not alter the rate at which you create trash.
Hence - changing oil more often does not make for less wear or less "sludge".

Some folks will never understand ....

And because we only have ONE UOA here to study, we really have no idea where the individual engine pattern will fall, so we can only rely on other macro data to make decisions.

There is nothing wrong with trying a shorter OCI, but there's no logic to think that it will magically make things "better". It's highly likely that the wear and soot will fall in line with exposure expectations. History teaches that with every UOA we see.
 
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Did you look at the TBN ? This oil’s alkalinity was depleted before it reached the 10k miles interval.




Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Originally Posted By: Audios
... and its cheap insurance.


And there it is; the infamous BITOG claim that if something is good, more of it most always must be better, somehow ...


Is there any proof that a more frequent OCI is going to reduce the wear rates? Or improve the contamination rates?

Just because he OCIs more often in your plan, does he get less wear per 1k miles?
Explain to me please, how changing lube more often makes the engine create less soot.

There's a difference between the magnitude of a characteristic in a UOA, versus the rate at which something occurs!

An engine that has 10ppm of Fe in 5k miles has the same wear rate as an engine that has 20ppm in 10k miles.
An engine that gives 3 grams of soot in 5k miles is the same as one that makes 6 grams of soot in 10k miles.

There's no proof that shorter OCIs reduce wear in "normal" use. In fact, quite the opposite is true; longer OCIs (within moderation of normalcy) actually lower the wear rates. In studying more than 12,000 UOAs, I've never seen a "normal" condition have less wear by changing lube more often. Just does not happen my friends. The VAST majority of data shows that longer OCIs reduce wear rates.


Let's use an analogy here ...
Consider an older couple that live in a small home, and they have a maid come in once a week to clean dishes and do 4 loads of laundry, and she takes 8 hours for the job one day a week (1 day a week for 8 hours). Now, if we cut her daily time in half, but sent her in twice as often (2x a week at 4 hours each), she'd still be doing the same amount of laundry and dirty dishes, because the RATE of contamination is the same. How often you send in the "cleaner" has no affect on who makes the dirty stuff. However if we altered the rate at which dirty stuff is created (send in the grand-kids for a two week visit), then the RATE of CONTAMINATION would likely make for more frequent cleaning to attain the same level of "clean".

How often you take out the trash does not alter the rate at which you create trash.
Hence - changing oil more often does not make for less wear or less "sludge".

Some folks will never understand ....

And because we only have ONE UOA here to study, we really have no idea where the individual engine pattern will fall, so we can only rely on other macro data to make decisions.

There is nothing wrong with trying a shorter OCI, but there's no logic to think that it will magically make things "better". It's highly likely that the wear and soot will fall in line with exposure expectations. History teaches that with every UOA we see.
 
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Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
Did you look at the TBN ? This oil's alkalinity was depleted before it reached the 10k miles interval.


Do we have any conclusive proof it made any difference? No.
Do we have more than one UOA here, so that we could see some other performance data? No.
Do we have any reason to suspect that the wear or sludge were somehow different than what a short OCI would have produced? No.


Many lube attributes are inputs to an equation. But they are only predictors of changes; they do no, in and of themselves, assure continued viability or imminent destruction. Vis, FP, TBN/TAN, etc are only cautionary markers to pay closer attention when things hit certain levels.

The TDIs have always thrown a lot of Fe; far more than most other engine families. The wear rates here are not grossly out of line with what we'd expect to see.

One UOA is NOT a basis for a conclusion; it's a tool to indicate continued analysis and focus on whatever the concern(s) may be.
 
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Well I don’t feel comfortable doing another 10k interval on LM TT 4200. I would equate it to “abuse” of my TDI. I will run another UOA at 7k to compare. Fe won’t be there, but the other metals and TBN should give me some more data. Overall this car has been mechanically solid. The repairs I’ve made have mostly been minor at 112k miles.

Ii would try 10k with a synthetic HDEO.
 
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