Recent Topics
2015 VW GTI autobahn oil questions
by Skyalbo
06/24/18 11:28 PM
Corrosion in the garage - salt or humidity?
by Kurtatron
06/24/18 11:13 PM
Darn dogs
by AZjeff
06/24/18 10:21 PM
New GC?
by Bullwinkle007
06/24/18 10:04 PM
The guy with the plexiglass head on you tube
by andyd
06/24/18 09:21 PM
'07 Pacifica Timing Belt Replacement success
by 92saturnsl2
06/24/18 09:10 PM
SAE 90 v 85/140
by Knuckle078
06/24/18 09:10 PM
Mobil 1 5W30-HM 5,011 mi, 1999 Ford Escort
by WA1DH
06/24/18 08:45 PM
what happened to merk
by ernied
06/24/18 08:34 PM
Schaeffer's oil reviews on Amazon
by zfasts03
06/24/18 07:41 PM
Decent MP3 player
by Ed_T
06/24/18 07:08 PM
Letgo
by Donald
06/24/18 06:52 PM
Tire buying advice
by supton
06/24/18 06:23 PM
Two versions of M1 5w30 ESP now?
by Patman
06/24/18 06:21 PM
No older cars in New York State?
by Oldtom
06/24/18 06:19 PM
2009 Taurus strut mount noise
by terry274
06/24/18 04:38 PM
A3/B3 vs A3/B4, big difference or irrelevant?
by FordCapriDriver
06/24/18 03:36 PM
2003 Honda power steering problem
by hogpops
06/24/18 03:29 PM
Public Service Announcement: Flush Your HW Heater
by gathermewool
06/24/18 03:25 PM
Fellow 2AZ-FE toyota owners: what oil are you usin
by car51
06/24/18 03:21 PM
Newest Members
lozpxs, danthemanx07, FunktasticLucky, Knuckle078, penncove
65317 Registered Users
Who's Online
26 registered (dishdude, Bailes1992, dogememe, Aero540T, cb_13, edhackett), 861 Guests and 32 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
65317 Members
67 Forums
285952 Topics
4771873 Posts

Max Online: 3590 @ 01/24/17 08:07 PM
Donate to BITOG
Topic Options
#4621345 - 01/02/18 05:47 AM 2009 Jetta TDI - LM Top Tec 4200 - 10K mi OCI
CleverUserName Offline


Registered: 11/08/17
Posts: 177
Loc: California
This was 4 years ago, and my first UOA. I was doing oil changes @ 6-7k miles, then I decided to try 10k w/ sampling as me and my mechanic thought 10k was a bad idea. I am the original owner and this was my 5th oil change on this car.

Never did 10k again. I still use Top Tec 4200 as I got a good deal on a 20L jug, but when I run out I'm going to try something else. I've been following 7k OCIs since then.

Mostly posting this as a PSA for members who have TDIs and think a 507 oil will last to 10k. Don't risk it. Ignore the 5w40 in the description, it is an error.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/UffJblv.png?2[/img]



Edited by CleverUserName (01/02/18 05:51 AM)

Top
#4621346 - 01/02/18 05:51 AM Re: 2009 Jetta TDI - LM Top Tec 4200 - 10K mi OCI [Re: CleverUserName]
Bailes1992 Online   content


Registered: 03/10/17
Posts: 119
Loc: South Wales, UK
In the UK the VAG allow 18,000mile OCI's on a 504/507 oil so I'm amazed to see such a bad UOA at 10k.
_________________________
'13 Suzuki Jimmny - '16 Dacia Duster 1.5DCi 4WD
'96 LR Defender 300TDi - '12 BMW 320d

Engine Oil - Fuchs Titan XTL GT1 5w40
Gearbox Oil - Fuchs Sintofluid 75w80
Diff Oil - Fuchs Sintopoid 75w90

Top
#4621348 - 01/02/18 05:53 AM Re: 2009 Jetta TDI - LM Top Tec 4200 - 10K mi OCI [Re: Bailes1992]
CleverUserName Offline


Registered: 11/08/17
Posts: 177
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Bailes1992
In the UK the VAG allow 18,000mile OCI's on a 504/507 oil so I'm amazed to see such a bad UOA at 10k.


You have higher quality fuel with less sulfer, right? If so, there would be less TBN depletion @ 18K.


Edited by CleverUserName (01/02/18 05:54 AM)

Top
#4621384 - 01/02/18 07:25 AM Re: 2009 Jetta TDI - LM Top Tec 4200 - 10K mi OCI [Re: CleverUserName]
dnewton3 Offline



Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 7392
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
TDI engines have always thrown a lot more Fe than most other engines for the exposure. But this UOA seems higher than most.

What's the status of it now? Have you UOA'd since this one FOUR YEARS AGO?
_________________________
The act of preventative maintenance, in and of itself, is FAR MORE important than brand/grade/base choices among lubes and filters.
- under maintaining something is akin to abuse/neglect; that can kill equipment by shortening the lifespan
- over maintaining something has never been proven to be anything but a waste of time and money

Top
#4621386 - 01/02/18 07:29 AM Re: 2009 Jetta TDI - LM Top Tec 4200 - 10K mi OCI [Re: CleverUserName]
CleverUserName Offline


Registered: 11/08/17
Posts: 177
Loc: California
I installed a magnetic drain plug after this was done. Fe, even if it is detected, won't be representative of the sample.

Is there a way to remove the ferrous material from the magnet and re-introduce it into the drained oil? Then I could mix it up really well and then grab a sample.

Has anybody ever tried this before?

Top
#4621389 - 01/02/18 07:30 AM Re: 2009 Jetta TDI - LM Top Tec 4200 - 10K mi OCI [Re: CleverUserName]
thorromig Offline


Registered: 03/22/12
Posts: 804
Loc: BerksCounty/Pa.
Is Top Tec speced for 10,000 mile OCIs? Not knocking LM oil but just inquisitive. Im gonna get a UOA on my wifes Jetta here when she hits 10,000 miles on this OCI to see what we need to do as for moving forward with mileage to change oil/filter. Currently running Castrol Edge 0W40 with a Fram Ultra. She presently has about 4500 miles on this oil & filter combo. Changed that FF fill out at 3750 miles & this is our first oil change besides the FF.


Edited by thorromig (01/02/18 07:31 AM)
_________________________
00 Dodge Ram 5.2L 4x4 Edge 10W30 FU (91K)
08 Acura TL Type S 3.5L PUPP 5W20 FU (101K)
17 Jetta TSI SE 1.4L Turbo - Edge 0W40 FU (Hers) (4K)

Top
#4621408 - 01/02/18 07:50 AM Re: 2009 Jetta TDI - LM Top Tec 4200 - 10K mi OCI [Re: CleverUserName]
SubieRubyRoo Offline


Registered: 05/14/12
Posts: 1141
Loc: Winchester, Indiana
Yeah, and the oil formulation probably hasn't changed at all in four years either... smirk

No details on usage also makes it hard to determine how stressed the oil was... if this was city driving with lots of idling, it may make more sense, on both wear metals and TBN.

Top
#4621410 - 01/02/18 07:54 AM Re: 2009 Jetta TDI - LM Top Tec 4200 - 10K mi OCI [Re: thorromig]
CleverUserName Offline


Registered: 11/08/17
Posts: 177
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: thorromig
Is Top Tec speced for 10,000 mile OCIs? Not knocking LM oil but just inquisitive. Im gonna get a UOA on my wifes Jetta here when she hits 10,000 miles on this OCI to see what we need to do as for moving forward with mileage to change oil/filter. Currently running Castrol Edge 0W40 with a Fram Ultra. She presently has about 4500 miles on this oil & filter combo. Changed that FF fill out at 3750 miles & this is our first oil change besides the FF.


Well, it's an approved low SAPS 507 oil so it should last 10K miles. It's also expensive. The viscosity was OK but it didn't hold up to the recommended OCI.

Top
#4621411 - 01/02/18 07:56 AM Re: 2009 Jetta TDI - LM Top Tec 4200 - 10K mi OCI [Re: SubieRubyRoo]
CleverUserName Offline


Registered: 11/08/17
Posts: 177
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: SubieRubyRoo
Yeah, and the oil formulation probably hasn't changed at all in four years either... smirk

No details on usage also makes it hard to determine how stressed the oil was... if this was city driving with lots of idling, it may make more sense, on both wear metals and TBN.


60% freeway and 40% city. I always used Chevron Diesel as it gave me the best MPGs. I don't abuse my cars.

Top
#4621439 - 01/02/18 08:31 AM Re: 2009 Jetta TDI - LM Top Tec 4200 - 10K mi OCI [Re: CleverUserName]
Audios Offline


Registered: 11/19/11
Posts: 889
Loc: Lyndhurst NJ
I can see why these engines are having sludge and wear issues with a lot of miles on them, especially if theyre going 10k. Id cut it down to 7500 miles to play it safe, like you were doing. Only adds one more per year, and its cheap insurance.
_________________________
2002 VW Golf TDI-Mobil 1 5/40 TDT
2005 BMW M3 BMW Twin Power 10/60
1998 BMW M3/4/5 Fuchs 5/40
2007 Mercedes GL320 CDI Fuchs 5/40 GT Pro XTL

Top
#4621695 - 01/02/18 12:08 PM Re: 2009 Jetta TDI - LM Top Tec 4200 - 10K mi OCI [Re: Audios]
dnewton3 Offline



Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 7392
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Originally Posted By: Audios
... and its cheap insurance.


And there it is; the infamous BITOG claim that if something is good, more of it most always must be better, somehow ...


Is there any proof that a more frequent OCI is going to reduce the wear rates? Or improve the contamination rates?

Just because he OCIs more often in your plan, does he get less wear per 1k miles?
Explain to me please, how changing lube more often makes the engine create less soot.

There's a difference between the magnitude of a characteristic in a UOA, versus the rate at which something occurs!

An engine that has 10ppm of Fe in 5k miles has the same wear rate as an engine that has 20ppm in 10k miles.
An engine that gives 3 grams of soot in 5k miles is the same as one that makes 6 grams of soot in 10k miles.

There's no proof that shorter OCIs reduce wear in "normal" use. In fact, quite the opposite is true; longer OCIs (within moderation of normalcy) actually lower the wear rates. In studying more than 12,000 UOAs, I've never seen a "normal" condition have less wear by changing lube more often. Just does not happen my friends. The VAST majority of data shows that longer OCIs reduce wear rates.


Let's use an analogy here ...
Consider an older couple that live in a small home, and they have a maid come in once a week to clean dishes and do 4 loads of laundry, and she takes 8 hours for the job one day a week (1 day a week for 8 hours). Now, if we cut her daily time in half, but sent her in twice as often (2x a week at 4 hours each), she'd still be doing the same amount of laundry and dirty dishes, because the RATE of contamination is the same. How often you send in the "cleaner" has no affect on who makes the dirty stuff. However if we altered the rate at which dirty stuff is created (send in the grand-kids for a two week visit), then the RATE of CONTAMINATION would likely make for more frequent cleaning to attain the same level of "clean".

How often you take out the trash does not alter the rate at which you create trash.
Hence - changing oil more often does not make for less wear or less "sludge".

Some folks will never understand ....

And because we only have ONE UOA here to study, we really have no idea where the individual engine pattern will fall, so we can only rely on other macro data to make decisions.

There is nothing wrong with trying a shorter OCI, but there's no logic to think that it will magically make things "better". It's highly likely that the wear and soot will fall in line with exposure expectations. History teaches that with every UOA we see.





Edited by dnewton3 (01/02/18 12:10 PM)
_________________________
The act of preventative maintenance, in and of itself, is FAR MORE important than brand/grade/base choices among lubes and filters.
- under maintaining something is akin to abuse/neglect; that can kill equipment by shortening the lifespan
- over maintaining something has never been proven to be anything but a waste of time and money

Top
#4621816 - 01/02/18 02:04 PM Re: 2009 Jetta TDI - LM Top Tec 4200 - 10K mi OCI [Re: dnewton3]
CleverUserName Offline


Registered: 11/08/17
Posts: 177
Loc: California
Did you look at the TBN ? This oilís alkalinity was depleted before it reached the 10k miles interval.




Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Originally Posted By: Audios
... and its cheap insurance.


And there it is; the infamous BITOG claim that if something is good, more of it most always must be better, somehow ...


Is there any proof that a more frequent OCI is going to reduce the wear rates? Or improve the contamination rates?

Just because he OCIs more often in your plan, does he get less wear per 1k miles?
Explain to me please, how changing lube more often makes the engine create less soot.

There's a difference between the magnitude of a characteristic in a UOA, versus the rate at which something occurs!

An engine that has 10ppm of Fe in 5k miles has the same wear rate as an engine that has 20ppm in 10k miles.
An engine that gives 3 grams of soot in 5k miles is the same as one that makes 6 grams of soot in 10k miles.

There's no proof that shorter OCIs reduce wear in "normal" use. In fact, quite the opposite is true; longer OCIs (within moderation of normalcy) actually lower the wear rates. In studying more than 12,000 UOAs, I've never seen a "normal" condition have less wear by changing lube more often. Just does not happen my friends. The VAST majority of data shows that longer OCIs reduce wear rates.


Let's use an analogy here ...
Consider an older couple that live in a small home, and they have a maid come in once a week to clean dishes and do 4 loads of laundry, and she takes 8 hours for the job one day a week (1 day a week for 8 hours). Now, if we cut her daily time in half, but sent her in twice as often (2x a week at 4 hours each), she'd still be doing the same amount of laundry and dirty dishes, because the RATE of contamination is the same. How often you send in the "cleaner" has no affect on who makes the dirty stuff. However if we altered the rate at which dirty stuff is created (send in the grand-kids for a two week visit), then the RATE of CONTAMINATION would likely make for more frequent cleaning to attain the same level of "clean".

How often you take out the trash does not alter the rate at which you create trash.
Hence - changing oil more often does not make for less wear or less "sludge".

Some folks will never understand ....

And because we only have ONE UOA here to study, we really have no idea where the individual engine pattern will fall, so we can only rely on other macro data to make decisions.

There is nothing wrong with trying a shorter OCI, but there's no logic to think that it will magically make things "better". It's highly likely that the wear and soot will fall in line with exposure expectations. History teaches that with every UOA we see.





Edited by CleverUserName (01/02/18 02:06 PM)

Top
#4622474 - 01/03/18 07:04 AM Re: 2009 Jetta TDI - LM Top Tec 4200 - 10K mi OCI [Re: CleverUserName]
dnewton3 Offline



Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 7392
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
Did you look at the TBN ? This oil's alkalinity was depleted before it reached the 10k miles interval.


Do we have any conclusive proof it made any difference? No.
Do we have more than one UOA here, so that we could see some other performance data? No.
Do we have any reason to suspect that the wear or sludge were somehow different than what a short OCI would have produced? No.


Many lube attributes are inputs to an equation. But they are only predictors of changes; they do no, in and of themselves, assure continued viability or imminent destruction. Vis, FP, TBN/TAN, etc are only cautionary markers to pay closer attention when things hit certain levels.

The TDIs have always thrown a lot of Fe; far more than most other engine families. The wear rates here are not grossly out of line with what we'd expect to see.

One UOA is NOT a basis for a conclusion; it's a tool to indicate continued analysis and focus on whatever the concern(s) may be.







Edited by dnewton3 (01/03/18 07:05 AM)
_________________________
The act of preventative maintenance, in and of itself, is FAR MORE important than brand/grade/base choices among lubes and filters.
- under maintaining something is akin to abuse/neglect; that can kill equipment by shortening the lifespan
- over maintaining something has never been proven to be anything but a waste of time and money

Top
#4622617 - 01/03/18 10:58 AM Re: 2009 Jetta TDI - LM Top Tec 4200 - 10K mi OCI [Re: CleverUserName]
CleverUserName Offline


Registered: 11/08/17
Posts: 177
Loc: California
Well I donít feel comfortable doing another 10k interval on LM TT 4200. I would equate it to ďabuseĒ of my TDI. I will run another UOA at 7k to compare. Fe wonít be there, but the other metals and TBN should give me some more data. Overall this car has been mechanically solid. The repairs Iíve made have mostly been minor at 112k miles.

Ii would try 10k with a synthetic HDEO.

Top