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#4619362 - 12/31/17 03:32 AM Does PAO content matter?
Joekar Offline


Registered: 12/30/17
Posts: 4
Loc: wild blue yonder
I'm starting to dig in to oil info... I looked at this site 3 years ago and people were saying PAO's aka group 4 synthetic was the good stuff... Now I reading that Penzoil Platinum Ultra and Mobile 1 extended performance are group 3. I read that these are group 3 because group 3 absorb the additive packages better and 100% PAO group 4 won't do that... So now I'm confused... What is the latest info on this as to what is the most protective and best for cars and trucks? I'm looking to always do 10,000 mile changes at the cheapest price with most protection...


Edited by Joekar (12/31/17 03:32 AM)

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#4619371 - 12/31/17 04:24 AM Re: Does PAO content matter? [Re: Joekar]
JFAllen Offline


Registered: 07/31/16
Posts: 145
Loc: Albury, NSW
Not really. PAO's are just a tool in the toolbox when it comes to formulating a lubrication oil. Like all other base oils they have their pro's and con's.

regards
Jordan

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#4619374 - 12/31/17 04:29 AM Re: Does PAO content matter? [Re: Joekar]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 29399
Loc: NY
To some people it does. Both oils you mentioned are very good products, and you'll have a hard time proving they can't do a great job keeping an engine clean and well protected. With regard to price, look for sales and rebates on either one, pick the cheaper one and run it.
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#4619389 - 12/31/17 05:11 AM Re: Does PAO content matter? [Re: Joekar]
4WD Offline


Registered: 09/21/10
Posts: 6024
Loc: Texas/International
Originally Posted By: Joekar
I'm starting to dig in to oil info... I looked at this site 3 years ago and people were saying PAO's aka group 4 synthetic was the good stuff... Now I reading that Penzoil Platinum Ultra and Mobile 1 extended performance are group 3. I read that these are group 3 because group 3 absorb the additive packages better and 100% PAO group 4 won't do that... So now I'm confused... What is the latest info on this as to what is the most protective and best for cars and trucks? I'm looking to always do 10,000 mile changes at the cheapest price with most protection...


To start with … there is too much “bucket” logic to oil A is base x and oil B is base y… many vary mixtures of base oil types depending on what grade and target performance (builder approvals etc) …
Manufacturing plays a role as well. I can say Super Tech and Pennzoil are both GIII … only Pennzoil uses quite a bit of GTL based GIII and is considered by most here a top ten pick. And I’m not sure who made the ST. Will that matter to my 2005 Yaris … maybe not … but don’t let Mopar catch you putting ST in a Dodge Demon power plant …
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#4619437 - 12/31/17 07:29 AM Re: Does PAO content matter? [Re: Joekar]
Cujet Offline


Registered: 02/15/03
Posts: 6976
Loc: Jupiter, Florida
Originally Posted By: Joekar
I'm looking to always do 10,000 mile changes at the cheapest price with most protection...


On some engines, 10K OCI's are just fine. On others, it's very important to choose a quality oil and change frequently [GM's Ecotec engines come to mind, but they are absolutely not the only modern family of engines that absolutely needs frequent changes]

You should know that nearly any quality oil base stock will hold up for 10,000 miles. The level of fuel dilution, insolubles/particulates/contaminates, resulting viscosity change, varnish build up and so on force the change. Again, the oil change is the ONLY way to remove contaminates from your oil.

The modern Corolla is prone to piston ring sticking at over the 100K mark. Choosing a quality synthetic and changing it regularly solves the issue. Oil is cheap, disassembly is not. Even the mighty Prius is prone to oil consumption issues if not properly and diligently maintained.

I don't know what you drive, but I do know a safe choice is to pick a quality synthetic and change frequently.


Edited by Cujet (12/31/17 07:30 AM)
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#4619464 - 12/31/17 08:20 AM Re: Does PAO content matter? [Re: Joekar]
LoneRanger Offline


Registered: 07/02/07
Posts: 3933
Loc: Midwest USA
Originally Posted By: Joekar
I'm starting to dig in to oil info... I looked at this site 3 years ago and people were saying PAO's aka group 4 synthetic was the good stuff... Now I reading that Penzoil Platinum Ultra and Mobile 1 extended performance are group 3. I read that these are group 3 because group 3 absorb the additive packages better and 100% PAO group 4 won't do that... So now I'm confused... What is the latest info on this as to what is the most protective and best for cars and trucks? I'm looking to always do 10,000 mile changes at the cheapest price with most protection...


Your best bet in choosing an extended drain oil is to narrow it down to a handful then go on the PQIA website and compare VOA's of your choices, considering TBN and additive pkg components.

http://pqiamerica.com/PCMO_Sample_Summary_12_15_2016.html

http://pqiamerica.com/HDEO_Sample_Summary_Dec_2016.html



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'09 Subaru Forester ...................(QSED DEXOS1 5W30)
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#4619487 - 12/31/17 08:49 AM Re: Does PAO content matter? [Re: Joekar]
CT8 Offline


Registered: 10/09/14
Posts: 10553
Loc: Idaho
PAO is a man made copy of an oil molecule it has some good traits though nothing remarkable.
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#4619504 - 12/31/17 09:07 AM Re: Does PAO content matter? [Re: Joekar]
Danh Offline


Registered: 10/16/10
Posts: 1708
Loc: .
If it makes you feel better, most grades of Mobil1 EP are 60-70% PAO. Look for 1 Decene Homopolymer (sic?) on th MSDS statement.

And while Pennzoil are technically Group 3, they are primarily "gas-to-liquid" products made from natural gas that have some similar characteristics.


Edited by Danh (12/31/17 09:08 AM)

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#4619511 - 12/31/17 09:09 AM Re: Does PAO content matter? [Re: Joekar]
fdcg27 Offline


Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 15436
Loc: OH
Getting the best CCV/MRV performance for a given grade seems to require some Grp IV.
If you compare M1 AFE or EP in the 0W-20 grade, either is notably less thick at the -35C test temperature than is GTL PP in this grade. Both of the M1 oils contain a decent proportion of PAO.
Interestingly, QSUD 0W-20 looks pretty good and probably isn't using a GTL basestock blend.
Basestocks are blended to provide the required level of performance and there is no shame in controlling costs by keeping the amount of very expensive Grp IV as low as it can be in achieving that level of performance.
This keeps motor oil affordable for you and me and having written all of the above, I have used PP in the 0W-20 grade over the winter and can't say that it seemed any better or worse than HGMO, TGMO or AFE, all of which I've used as winter fills.
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#4619540 - 12/31/17 09:57 AM Re: Does PAO content matter? [Re: Joekar]
oil_film_movies Offline


Registered: 06/13/16
Posts: 2247
Loc: MN
PAO does seem to be the current go-to ingredient for the higher performance oils on the market, yes. Mobil, Amsoil, Redline, Motul, Castrol, others.... turn to it, so yes, look for it in varying percentages, mixed with GroupIII and maybe GroupII in the best oils.
It oxidizes less, so its high-temperature stable over a longer period of time. Robust. Expensive premium ingredient. Worth it for severed duty (racing, towing, nice new engines, etc.).

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#4619556 - 12/31/17 10:25 AM Re: Does PAO content matter? [Re: Joekar]
double vanos Offline


Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 1820
Loc: 5600 feet elevation, Arizona
Remember the Castrol fru-haha over them changing formulations from PAO to grp3? It was considered heresy by many with their new opinion of Castrol as being an oil producing “traitor”. Turns out all the bellowing was for nothing as Castrol oils continued to keep engines running just fine. And now (what, like 2 decades later) grp3 oils have settled in as a pretty darn good oil base to formulate with.

So as to the question, the TOTAL package is what really matters, with any number of mixes of base oils and additives used to achieve a defined purpose. KJ Smith has posted some terrific 10k mile UOAs with Castrol Magnatec in his Ford Ecoboost engine, and I don’t think the Magnatec series is Castrols’ top tier oil. Just so happens to work incredibly well in his engine, why would he pay more $$ for a higher tier oil when the jobs already getting done in spades?

UOAs do more to help select an oil than anything else.
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#4619558 - 12/31/17 10:30 AM Re: Does PAO content matter? [Re: oil_film_movies]
Lasthope05 Offline


Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 42
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
PAO does seem to be the current go-to ingredient for the higher performance oils on the market, yes. Mobil, Amsoil, Redline, Motul, Castrol, others.... turn to it, so yes, look for it in varying percentages, mixed with GroupIII and maybe GroupII in the best oils.
It oxidizes less, so its high-temperature stable over a longer period of time. Robust. Expensive premium ingredient. Worth it for severed duty (racing, towing, nice new engines, etc.).


I'm pretty sure Redline and Motul are both ester based oils and not PAO, unless I'm mistaken.


Edited by Lasthope05 (12/31/17 10:30 AM)

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#4619581 - 12/31/17 11:06 AM Re: Does PAO content matter? [Re: Lasthope05]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 35992
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Lasthope05
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
PAO does seem to be the current go-to ingredient for the higher performance oils on the market, yes. Mobil, Amsoil, Redline, Motul, Castrol, others.... turn to it, so yes, look for it in varying percentages, mixed with GroupIII and maybe GroupII in the best oils.
It oxidizes less, so its high-temperature stable over a longer period of time. Robust. Expensive premium ingredient. Worth it for severed duty (racing, towing, nice new engines, etc.).


I'm pretty sure Redline and Motul are both ester based oils and not PAO, unless I'm mistaken.


They are both PAO based with some ester content according to MSDS information.

PAO has exceptional cold temperature performance due to having no wax. Ergo, it does not require PPD dosing like a Group III oil to get the 0w-xx designation. This is why Castrol 0w-40 for example, still has a large chunk of its base oil being PAO and why many Mobil 1 0w-xx grades have varying amounts of PAO in them.

Of course PAO is also obscenely expensive as a base oil. It has poor additive solubility and polarity. So PAO bases need to be blended with others, like Esters, AN's or lower groups for help in those areas and balance out the formula.

An illustration of Group III vs PAO in low temp from Chevron/Philips:
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#4619597 - 12/31/17 11:24 AM Re: Does PAO content matter? [Re: Danh]
Astro_Guy Offline


Registered: 07/30/15
Posts: 399
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: Danh
If it makes you feel better, most grades of Mobil1 EP are 60-70% PAO. Look for 1 Decene Homopolymer (sic?) on th MSDS statement.

Actually that only applies to the 0w20 flavor. The rest look like this:

5W20 - 20 TO 30%

5W30 - 20 TO 30%

10W30 - 1 TO 5%

See https://www.exxonmobil.com/sds and search for "extended."
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#4619615 - 12/31/17 11:46 AM Re: Does PAO content matter? [Re: Joekar]
Bryanccfshr Offline


Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 5665
Loc: Durango, Co
It is important to understand why group IV has its performance characteristics. It is formed from a very uncontaminated gas stream and reacted to form very consistent molecules.. It is not that much different than group III+ in that manner other than the natural gas stream may have more outside contaminates than the ethelyn stream in a refinery for example.
Group III is simplly well refined and or hudrocracked base oil. The more severely you treat the oil the more unwanted contaminates are removed. (The definition is actually defined by product properties and not the process. A high quality supply stream that is less sour requires less treating than a high sulfur asphalt type of stream)
All of this results in a clear and to varying degrees pure base oil. Purity creates properties such as low pour point, high oxidative stability and a high viscosity index. And as has been mentioned, it is also very non-polar the more pure it is. Making it necessary to use polar lubricants in the blend to make a good final lubricant.
The other components in the final engine oil and the additives are just as important to the final product.

I just think it’s neat as [censored] that all of the technologies are typically used in a high quality Synthetic you can go buy for just over 20 bucks a jug!
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