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#4618487 - 12/30/17 05:59 AM Bullet keyholed
clarkflower Offline


Registered: 12/27/11
Posts: 719
Loc: US
I just got a new seecamp. I bought 1 box of Buffalo Bore BUFFALO-BARNES .32 ACP +P LEAD FREE ( I didn't want to own more if they didn't cycle)

Shot all but 7 and they worked flawlessly and accurately

After looking at my target I see the Buffalo Bore BUFFALO-BARNES .32 ACP +P LEAD FR keyholed for sure (The rounds to the right of the head)

Any thoughts...stop using?


Edited by clarkflower (12/30/17 06:00 AM)

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#4618490 - 12/30/17 06:11 AM Re: Bullet keyholed [Re: clarkflower]
JohnnyJohnson Online   content


Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2740
Loc: Wet side WA
Non lead bullets are longer than lead bullets they take more twist to stabilize. I've seen this same problem in non lead bullets in 20 caliber and 22 caliber.
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#4618498 - 12/30/17 06:31 AM Re: Bullet keyholed [Re: JohnnyJohnson]
clarkflower Offline


Registered: 12/27/11
Posts: 719
Loc: US
This may be stupid but what are the issues. The range just let me run in and shoot 13 quick to see if they cycled. That was 15 feet on a target someone left.

Barnes claims 950 FPS vs many 770 FPS from stock rounds. Seems to me you would lose velocity. Less penetration. No expansion or none.. Correct?

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#4618506 - 12/30/17 06:58 AM Re: Bullet keyholed [Re: JohnnyJohnson]
billt460 Offline


Registered: 03/30/15
Posts: 4391
Loc: Glendale, Arizona
Originally Posted By: JohnnyJohnson
Non lead bullets are longer than lead bullets they take more twist to stabilize.


This is true, and is the main reason so many guns have difficulty shooting Barnes solid copper bullets with any degree of accuracy. Copper does not have the density of lead. Because of that most every solid copper bullet has to be made longer to achieve the same weight as a standard lead core, copper jacketed projectile. In many cases this requires a higher twist rate to stabilize it. In a rifle caliber like .223 this isn't as big of an issue, because there are a ton of AR platform weapons out there with 1 in 7" twist barrels. While some bolt action sporters in .223 used mostly for varmint hunting can have twist rates as high as 1 in 12" twist.

Varmint hunters using centerfire .223's like light weight, thin jacketed explosive bullets, driven at very high velocities. These type of bullets will disintegrate in flight, if they are driven too fast and over rotated in a high twist rate barrel. By the same token if you like and want to shoot homogenous solid copper bullets, you want the highest twist rate possible, or you will have accuracy issues. Keyholing among them. The biggest issue with handguns is the twist rate is pretty much standard for the caliber of weapon, regardless of the manufacturer. All of this is not a fault of Barnes lack of quality. Their bullets are some of the highest quality out there. But rather the result of physics.

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#4618515 - 12/30/17 07:10 AM Re: Bullet keyholed [Re: clarkflower]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 29758
Loc: NY
It sounds like the barrel twist isn't right for those bullets. You'll have to select another bullet.
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#4618534 - 12/30/17 07:50 AM Re: Bullet keyholed [Re: clarkflower]
Al Offline


Registered: 06/08/02
Posts: 18034
Loc: Elizabethtown, Pa
Just curious. Why would someone to a non lead bullet. I appreciatr the philosophical environmental impact. So if its like "I want to help preserve the earth"..I get that.

BTW I am not trying to start an argument.
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#4618544 - 12/30/17 08:04 AM Re: Bullet keyholed [Re: Al]
MolaKule Offline


Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 19042
Loc: Iowegia - USA
Originally Posted By: Al
Just curious. Why would someone to a non lead bullet. I appreciatr the philosophical environmental impact. So if its like "I want to help preserve the earth"..I get that.

BTW I am not trying to start an argument.


I had the same question Al. Both are metals but with different densities.

Was this just an experiment to see what the bullet type would do?

BTW, I have yet to see a .32 ACP score for any accuracy over 5 meters.


Edited by MolaKule (12/30/17 08:05 AM)

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#4618545 - 12/30/17 08:06 AM Re: Bullet keyholed [Re: Al]
clarkflower Offline


Registered: 12/27/11
Posts: 719
Loc: US
Copper had nothing to do with it (for me)

I was looking for a round that would function in my Seecamp, and give the best velocity expansion and penetration.
Most of the commercial rounds give you around 770-850 in the Seecamp 2 inch barrel and don't expand or underpenatrate. That round claims 950ish out of a Seecamp 2 inch barrel.

The Corbon's (similar velocity) are all out of stock everywhere I look. From what I read the 32 ACP 50 Grain Xtreme Cavitator have some feeding/ejecting issues.

I do have bigger caliber guns. I just want the best round for that one and it's fun to test.

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#4618549 - 12/30/17 08:13 AM Re: Bullet keyholed [Re: MolaKule]
clarkflower Offline


Registered: 12/27/11
Posts: 719
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
[quote=Al]
BTW, I have yet to see a .32 ACP score for any accuracy over 5 meters.



At 20 feet I can put all shots in the torso and I can walk around with the gun in my top shirt pocket. It has its place in a very hot climate. That old: The 32 in your pocket is better that the 44 in your dresser. I used to leave my bigger guns at home many times. I don't plan on stopping a bank robbery with it but I can take cover and perhaps make someone retreat rather than advance into fire.


Edited by clarkflower (12/30/17 08:16 AM)

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#4618566 - 12/30/17 08:21 AM Re: Bullet keyholed [Re: clarkflower]
AZjeff Offline


Registered: 01/14/11
Posts: 2636
Loc: PV Az
You say they were accurate at 15 feet so what's the problem? A tumbling bullet could well have better terminal performance than one behaving normally. This pistol/round is a head scratcher. You mention penetration and expansion so you're going to use it for SD? It's a pretty little thing but for $169 these days you can buy a Ruger LCP that with standard 90g ammo has more energy at 200 fp vs 161 and if you go to the BB lead free .380 almost double the energy at 289 fp. Going back to a non +P .32 you're back to 120-130 fp. Is it about recoil?

Interested to hear your thoughts on choosing the Seacamp.
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#4618580 - 12/30/17 08:41 AM Re: Bullet keyholed [Re: AZjeff]
clarkflower Offline


Registered: 12/27/11
Posts: 719
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: AZjeff
You say they were accurate at 15 feet so what's the problem? A tumbling bullet could well have better terminal performance than one behaving normally. This pistol/round is a head scratcher. You mention penetration and expansion so you're going to use it for SD? It's a pretty little thing but for $169 these days you can buy a Ruger LCP that with standard 90g ammo has more energy at 200 fp vs 161 and if you go to the BB lead free .380 almost double the energy at 289 fp. Going back to a non +P .32 you're back to 120-130 fp. Is it about recoil?

Interested to hear your thoughts on choosing the Seacamp.


1) Yes SD gun. I agree and thought of the tumbling but I don't know. I thought I asked that above >This may be stupid but what are the issues.
Barnes claims 950 FPS vs many 770 FPS from stock rounds. Seems to me you would lose velocity. Less penetration. No expansion or none.. Correct?
I guess I would have to test velocity for the tumbling barnes and fire it into Gel?

2) I have the smallest 380 and its much bigger than the Seecamp which as I said above easily goes in my top shirt pocket. The 380 will not and paints in my pants pocket. The Seecamp does not. I tend to always have the Seecamp on me when I would leave a bigger gun behind.

3) Not recoil. Most 32's do not expand and the ones that do get 4-6 inches in gel. I love the gun why not find the best round that works?


Edited by clarkflower (12/30/17 08:48 AM)

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#4618625 - 12/30/17 09:38 AM Re: Bullet keyholed [Re: AZjeff]
clarkflower Offline


Registered: 12/27/11
Posts: 719
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: AZjeff
A tumbling bullet could well have better terminal performance than one behaving normally.


Question on this: If the bullet hits flat what have you got?
Complete unknown?

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#4618631 - 12/30/17 09:51 AM Re: Bullet keyholed [Re: clarkflower]
billt460 Offline


Registered: 03/30/15
Posts: 4391
Loc: Glendale, Arizona
ALL bullets are designed and tested to perform with a straight, nose forward delivery. Tumbling bullets are totally unpredictable in both accuracy, as well as performance. If the gun won't deliver it's ammunition properly, something is wrong. Either with the weapon, or the ammunition. And it should be corrected.

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#4618632 - 12/30/17 09:51 AM Re: Bullet keyholed [Re: clarkflower]
bigj_16 Offline


Registered: 07/03/17
Posts: 1267
Loc: Douglas County, Colorado
I carry a a Kahr CW380 in a Recluse holster(back pocket). One of the smallest .380's. In the Recluse it does not print. Looks like a wallet(I use the extra magazine one, which is squarish). There ARE some pants pockets, where just the top of it sticks out. There are others where it disappears inside. Most fall in between. I can also put it in the front pockets of the most of the button up shirts I own. I understand you may have to wear certain types of clothes for a job, or size, but you can get clothes that work. It is certainly much easier than trying to buy clothes that work for an IWB holster. I also have a front pocket Recluse for the CW380, which I can use in certain situations. Both of those holsters work just fine in MOST left (or right) inside jacket pockets, like the one in Carhartt jackets. I also have a Recluse front pocket holster for the Kahr CT9, which works with some pants and situations, and goes into the inside jacket pocket.
Now admittedly, the CW380 is small. The Ruger LCP is about a quarter inch longer, which doesn't sound like much, but could make a lot of difference in what sticks out. That is one reason I went with the CW380.

https://recluseholster.com/kahr-p380-recluse-square-pocket-holster


Edited by bigj_16 (12/30/17 10:03 AM)

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#4618661 - 12/30/17 10:16 AM Re: Bullet keyholed [Re: bigj_16]
clarkflower Offline


Registered: 12/27/11
Posts: 719
Loc: US
Kahr CW380 length of 4.96 inches and a height of 3.9 inches.
Seecamp 32 length of 4.2 inches and a height of 3.2

My 380 is 5.2 and 3.7. Sticky Holster. Many times I leave it at home as I do my Colt 38. Just a personal choice to have something smaller


Edited by clarkflower (12/30/17 10:17 AM)

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