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Thick oil and filter media damage #4614413
12/26/17 08:36 AM
12/26/17 08:36 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 14,126
Illinois
tig1 Offline OP
tig1  Offline OP

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 14,126
Illinois
I see media damage from some filters here from time to time. Was wondering if oil thicker than recommended by the engine builders could cause media damage as the oil pump is forcing oil through the filter? As you know I tend to use thinner oil and have never seen media damage in one of my filters. Just a thought when I saw the E-Core thread.


2007 Ford Fusion 239,000 miles
M1 0-20 EP
2017 Ford Fusion 65K
M1 0-20 EP
10,000 mile OCIs on both engines
M1 ATF and Valvoline LV
M1 10-30 in all OPE
MC filters

Re: Thick oil and filter media damage [Re: tig1] #4614416
12/26/17 08:38 AM
12/26/17 08:38 AM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,444
NoVA
Jimzz Offline
Jimzz  Offline

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,444
NoVA
Should have nothing to do with it. Oil filter, most, have bypass valves. If the pressure increased enough to damage the media then the bypass valve should have already been open well before that.

Either way it shows a bad filter design/manufacture issue.


yup
Re: Thick oil and filter media damage [Re: tig1] #4614417
12/26/17 08:39 AM
12/26/17 08:39 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,469
Florida
Artem Offline
Artem  Offline

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,469
Florida
I suppose it's possible, theoretically. But I'd imagine its an El Cheapo or defective oil filters that's to blame in those cases.


2014 Mazda 3 Hatch 2.0L & 6spd - Idemitsu 0w20 Synthetic @ $0.75 a quart. (thanks Advance Auto Parts for the awesome deal)
Re: Thick oil and filter media damage [Re: tig1] #4614420
12/26/17 08:44 AM
12/26/17 08:44 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 31,664
NY
demarpaint Offline
demarpaint  Offline

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 31,664
NY
There are several filters that are in use in vehicles calling for oil ranging from 20 to 40 grade oil, even 50 grade in some cases. So I doubt that would be the cause. A defect or bad filter is just that.


God Bless Our Troops

Re: Thick oil and filter media damage [Re: tig1] #4614421
12/26/17 08:46 AM
12/26/17 08:46 AM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,013
Wet side WA
JohnnyJohnson Offline
JohnnyJohnson  Offline

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,013
Wet side WA
Finer micron filtering it seems there could be some logic to that especially in colder weather.

Last edited by JohnnyJohnson; 12/26/17 08:46 AM.

2004 Corolla 129892
Out: EDGE EP 5W-30 Bosch 3311 7156 Miles
In: Havoline Pro DS 10w-30 Purolator PureOne 3-14-19 129693
2006 Duramax 74725
Out: T6 5W-40 M1-303
In: T6 5W-40 XG9100 73705 4-22-18
Re: Thick oil and filter media damage [Re: tig1] #4614428
12/26/17 09:00 AM
12/26/17 09:00 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,173
Texas
4WD Offline
4WD  Offline

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,173
Texas
If you follow the original Darcy Flow Equation it was based on water flow through a certain permeability (a function of porosity) — modern iterations used by Petroleum Engineers et al would include the effects of viscosity/phase/temps … so there is more resistance and the PD pump is not slowing down. So to Tig’s question it’s possible … but full flow filters and the lube system can bypass briefly and all grades of oil thins at engine operated temperature

Distance is related as well … a short path of resistance (media) is minor compared to ID and lengths of small ID … so “plumbing” has a high parasitic loss … (filters are oversized even when we don’t call them such)

Re: Thick oil and filter media damage [Re: tig1] #4614440
12/26/17 09:26 AM
12/26/17 09:26 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,111
Connecticut
69GTX Offline
69GTX  Offline

Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,111
Connecticut
At startup in cold weather, your oil is the thickest it will be (ie the 0w, 5w, 10w part). If oil flow through the filter were a problem it would show up there, and not with the "thicker" 10w-40 oil at normal engine operating temps.


----------------

2001 Lincoln Cont 4.6L DOHC/ 39K mi / QS HM 5w30 / FUG XG2
1999 Camaro SS M6 /19K /Mobil 1 0w40 /Fram UG /GM MTL-ATF
1969 Ply GTX/RRs
Re: Thick oil and filter media damage [Re: Jimzz] #4614445
12/26/17 09:34 AM
12/26/17 09:34 AM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,738
Storrs, Connecticut
jeepman3071 Offline
jeepman3071  Offline

Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,738
Storrs, Connecticut
Originally Posted By: Jimzz

Either way it shows a bad filter design/manufacture issue.


This. It has more to do with manufacturing flaws and inconsistency in the filter media. It can also be caused by using the wrong filter or running a cheap filter for too long.

I did an oil change last night on my sister's 2013 VW Jetta 2.5L, which has a cartridge filter. The dealer she bought it from put in synthetic oil, but used a cheap STP cartridge filter that didn't seem to fit correctly. The oil had about 7,000 miles on it and the filter was crushed with wavy media.


2000 Jeep Cherokee 4.0L (181k) - Pennzoil 10w30, Napa Gold 1516, Magnefine trans filter
2009 BMW 328i (38k) - Castrol Edge Euro 0w40, MANN HU816X
Re: Thick oil and filter media damage [Re: tig1] #4614447
12/26/17 09:37 AM
12/26/17 09:37 AM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 7,997
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline

Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 7,997
Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: tig1
I see media damage from some filters here from time to time. Was wondering if oil thicker than recommended by the engine builders could cause media damage as the oil pump is forcing oil through the filter?


No, in the past I have seen oil filters last just fine handling 20W-50 oil and 80-100 psi. No tears in any, other than a Fram from the 80's

I am VERY surprised at the tearing media epidemic we have seen the last couple years!


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: Thick oil and filter media damage [Re: tig1] #4614464
12/26/17 09:52 AM
12/26/17 09:52 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,731
Cincinnati, OH, USA
bullwinkle Offline
bullwinkle  Offline

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,731
Cincinnati, OH, USA
Originally Posted By: tig1
I see media damage from some filters here from time to time. Was wondering if oil thicker than recommended by the engine builders could cause media damage as the oil pump is forcing oil through the filter? As you know I tend to use thinner oil and have never seen media damage in one of my filters. Just a thought when I saw the E-Core thread.
Thin, brittle media with poorly engineered pleats (think Purolator), combined with winter temperatures, thick conventional oil, and even moderately high RPMs can cause the tearing issues. I personally haven't had Puros (or old Ecores) with torn media-but I try hard not to push engines hard until they're completely (or at least mostly) warmed up.


06 Ram 3500 CTD 4X4(FG Venturi), 93 GMC C3500 6.2, 89 F-450 7.3, 98 XJ 4.0(XG8A), 05 xB(XG3600), 18 Transit 3.7, 03 Merc Grand Marquis 4.6 2V(XG2)
Re: Thick oil and filter media damage [Re: Linctex] #4614467
12/26/17 09:55 AM
12/26/17 09:55 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 14,126
Illinois
tig1 Offline OP
tig1  Offline OP

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 14,126
Illinois
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: tig1
I see media damage from some filters here from time to time. Was wondering if oil thicker than recommended by the engine builders could cause media damage as the oil pump is forcing oil through the filter?


No, in the past I have seen oil filters last just fine handling 20W-50 oil and 80-100 psi. No tears in any, other than a Fram from the 80's

I am VERY surprised at the tearing media epidemic we have seen the last couple years!


Is there a surge in oil pressure at start in very cold temps? Especially with thicker oils. The oil filter is the first place the oil travels from the oil pump(is that right). On cold starts thick oil can by pass the filter for a time(not good). Can the filter by pass system(OEM filters) be designed for the oil wt. called for by the engine builders?


2007 Ford Fusion 239,000 miles
M1 0-20 EP
2017 Ford Fusion 65K
M1 0-20 EP
10,000 mile OCIs on both engines
M1 ATF and Valvoline LV
M1 10-30 in all OPE
MC filters

Re: Thick oil and filter media damage [Re: Linctex] #4614474
12/26/17 10:03 AM
12/26/17 10:03 AM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 12,380
In the shop
53' Stude Offline
53' Stude  Offline

Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 12,380
In the shop
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: tig1
I see media damage from some filters here from time to time. Was wondering if oil thicker than recommended by the engine builders could cause media damage as the oil pump is forcing oil through the filter?


No, in the past I have seen oil filters last just fine handling 20W-50 oil and 80-100 psi. No tears in any, other than a Fram from the 80's

I am VERY surprised at the tearing media epidemic we have seen the last couple years!


Quality control at PUROLATOR as I’ve cut and posted, witnessed is job # 0 that is ZERO. Why I would not use Motorcraft filters at all even if paid to wink



Re: Thick oil and filter media damage [Re: tig1] #4614482
12/26/17 10:15 AM
12/26/17 10:15 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,173
Texas
4WD Offline
4WD  Offline

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,173
Texas
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: tig1
I see media damage from some filters here from time to time. Was wondering if oil thicker than recommended by the engine builders could cause media damage as the oil pump is forcing oil through the filter?


No, in the past I have seen oil filters last just fine handling 20W-50 oil and 80-100 psi. No tears in any, other than a Fram from the 80's

I am VERY surprised at the tearing media epidemic we have seen the last couple years!


Is there a surge in oil pressure at start in very cold temps? Especially with thicker oils. The oil filter is the first place the oil travels from the oil pump(is that right). On cold starts thick oil can by pass the filter for a time(not good). Can the filter by pass system(OEM filters) be designed for the oil wt. called for by the engine builders?


A filter bypass due to surge will be fairly short … the oil was clean to start with …
If I was worried about filter collapse … I’d be all over a wire backed synthetic … Oh wait, I am …

Re: Thick oil and filter media damage [Re: tig1] #4614484
12/26/17 10:16 AM
12/26/17 10:16 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 1,634
Houston, Texas
WellOiled Offline
WellOiled  Offline

Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 1,634
Houston, Texas
Tig1 - good question. My take is a thicker oil will offer more resistance to flow especially during cold starts. If the filter design and manufacturing implementation is weak or the media is weak, then the weak filter may tear sooner with the thick oil than the thin oil. This is with respect to number of cold starts. Just my opinion.


2004 Ford Ranger 4.0L V6
Valvoline Advanced Full Synthetic HM 5W30 + WIX 51372
Re: Thick oil and filter media damage [Re: 53' Stude] #4614485
12/26/17 10:18 AM
12/26/17 10:18 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,173
Texas
4WD Offline
4WD  Offline

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,173
Texas
51 - agree ~ From my hands on “messing” with new/used Puro and a few repainted versions … the box was tougher than the media

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