So how does one learn how to fly an unusual plane?

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The discussion about flights in a P51 got me thinking...it must be pretty straightforward to learn to fly a common plane, but what about a P51, or a P38, or what about some oddball, say a ME262 (don't know if any are flying, just pulled it out of a hat). How would someone learn how to fly a rare bird, without killing themselves and destroying the plane?

Will we reach a point where there is nobody alive who can successfully fly some of these rare planes, especially older ones?
 
RTFM. Actually there is quiet a wealth of knowledge out there. BTW, there are a couple of ME-262s flying. Think that they are new production with modern engines.
 
I'm not a pilot, just an aviation enthusiast. You have to remember, every aircraft's first flight was with a pilot with 0 hours experience on the airframe. So you take it slow and learn, I would imagine.
 
I learned to fly more years ago than I care to remember in an old Piper J3 Cub. Flying more complex airplanes such as the Mustang or P38 is like learning to drive a big truck. It is an acquired skill that some people excel at and others have problems or can't do it at all. Most Mustangs flying now are dual seat so a pilot that is new to the airplane will fly with an experienced instructor to gain the skill needed to fly the airplane safely.
 
Of course, flying by V speeds is critical. However, nearly all aircraft fly the same way, so once you are up and flying, any competent pilot can fly nearly anything. Because of my job, I get to fly a very wide variety of aircraft. I am not God's gift to aviation. I consider myself a novice in everything until I get years of experience.

For instance, putting a private pilot in our EC135 helicopter would be no problem, once it's up and flying. Hover, approach and landing is another story. In that case, the private pilot would need hours and hours of training and very specific instruction as to what's happening and why. The manual would never cover it.

So, if one were transported to a universe where there was zero experience, difficult to fly aircraft would take some serious, slow and dedicated effort.
 
Don't forget the rather demanding trainers made for transitioning to those aircraft; T6/Harvard/SNJ, Vultee "Vibrator"...can't remember the German one...Taifun?

I have had the pleasure of flying a T6..."unforgiving" comes to mind...but some of my favorite hours in the air.
 
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Of course, flying by V speeds is critical. However, nearly all aircraft fly the same way, so once you are up and flying, any competent pilot can fly nearly anything.


This right here. If you can fly a cessna 150, you can fly a widebody boeing.

A P-51 is just a high performance tail tragger, nonetheless.
 
If you have reasonable eyesight and health than all you have to do it want to fly bad enough to just do it. There is a learning curve and a sort of apprenticeship one must serve as you move up to bigger and better things.

I learned to fly in a J3 that you had to "prop" to start. In high school, I traded work for instruction and flying time. Your first solo flight is something you'll always remember. Once you've started it's up to you how far you go.
 
Originally Posted By: maximus
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Of course, flying by V speeds is critical. However, nearly all aircraft fly the same way, so once you are up and flying, any competent pilot can fly nearly anything.


This right here. If you can fly a cessna 150, you can fly a widebody boeing.
My neighbor was a Naval Aviator and recently retired as as major airline pilot and he said the same thing about flying. First you learn to fly then you learn how to fly the plane. Big jets have lots of switches and knobs to learn. I spent some time drinking coffee in a 747 cockpit and some time in a Cessna 152 and the 747 would be quite an upgrade in skill.
 
Originally Posted By: Cujet


For instance, putting a private pilot in (nearly any aircraft already flying straight and level) would be no problem, once it's up and flying. Hover, approach and landing is another story. In that case, the private pilot would need hours and hours of training and very specific instruction as to what's happening and why.


There, I fixed it for you
grin.gif
 
The degree of fly-ability depends a LOT (or entirely) on the dynamic stability of the aircraft.

Cessnas and big Boeings are all pretty stable, and are forgiving of "stupid" inputs.

You can't take a low hours pilot and expect them to fly a Gee Bee or Cassutt without almost certainly killing himself.

The only way a pilot can fly an unstable ("touchy" or "finicky") aircraft is have them work up in steps.
 
My dad flew for years on several types of planes. The allowable flight parameters and procedures for each are unique and critical.

You needed to book learn the details for a plane and know it until it's second nature before take off, if stuff happens, you have to
know in real time what to do or you're dead.

If you have 3 totally different planes and you jump from one to another in the same day, you're ripe for an accident!
You need totally adjust your mindset from say, a 'King Air' turboprop to a 'Cessna 172' and not screw up.

Killer example:

Unlike most civilian planes, you can fly and land during an engine failure. BUT if you're in a BD-5 plane and the
engine quits, it'll nose-up into an instant stall! You have a fraction of a second to nose it over and maintain airspeed!

Why?

As a pusher prop plane, the thrust-line of the engine is way over the wings and the CL of the plane, when the engine dies
the prop creates drag, no thrust, so it noses up right away! Test pilots nearly died several times until they figured that out.


So if you have a Cessna pilot in the cockpit of a 747 without knowing ALL the operating limits, cruise numbers, you can easily
bugger it all up!

A pal runs a microlight strip, he says, it's the pilots of regular planes most likely to have an accident, the microlights
require a totally different touch and more patience!
 
Stick and rudder skills are fundamental and applicable to just about all fixed wing types. Obviously learning systems and llimitations are critical to safe operation. This is why the FAA requires a type rating for aircraft over 12500lbs mtow OR anything with turnbojet(fan) engines.

This is why a pilot can transition from a cessna or piper straight to a regional jet.
 
Remember most of the P-51 and P-47 pilots during WW II were little more than kids. Many were under the age of 21, or barely a year or 2 over that. Most had minimum hours, and what little training they had was in Stearman's and AT-6's and the like. Those big radial tail draggers were not the most forgiving aircraft to fly. They learned, and learned fast.

They had to, we were at war. But all those airplanes were not only plentiful back then, they were owned by the government. Who also sold the paper War Bonds, and owned the printing presses that printed the money to buy them. Today with privately restored P-51 D Mustangs selling north of $1 MILLION, there would no doubt be a LOT more training involved..... Expensive training. Today P-51 Mustangs cost in the neighborhood of $1,500.00 an hour to operate.
 
Originally Posted By: billt460
Remember most of the P-51 and P-47 pilots during WW II were little more than kids. Many were under the age of 21, or barely a year or 2 over that. Most had minimum hours, and what little training they had was in Stearman's and AT-6's and the like. Those big radial tail draggers were not the most forgiving aircraft to fly. They learned, and learned fast.

They had to, we were at war. But all those airplanes were not only plentiful back then, they were owned by the government. Who also sold the paper War Bonds, and owned the printing presses that printed the money to buy them. Today with privately restored P-51 D Mustangs selling north of $1 MILLION, there would no doubt be a LOT more training involved..... Expensive training. Today P-51 Mustangs cost in the neighborhood of $1,500.00 an hour to operate.
A lot of eye opening info in 1 post.
Thanks for posting
 
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Another fact with the WW II war birds of the day, is that a lot of the young pilots who flew them developed their flying skills with, "on the job training", so to speak. World War II P-47 Thunderbolt ace Gabby Gabreski was one of the best examples of this. He shot down a total of 34 enemy aircraft in his career, and received several medals and decorations for doing so. Yet when he first started flying, after 6 hours of instruction in a Taylorcraft, his instructor said he didn't allow him to solo because, "He did not have the touch to be a pilot".

Those WW II fighter aircraft were not easy to fly. But they lacked the tremendously complex flight and weapon systems that todays modern jet fighter aircraft possess. All of which take years of training, and cost millions of dollars to fully train a pilot in. With fuel and maintenance many of the newer modern fighters today can cost well into 5 figures an hour to operate. It was a whole different world back then in military aviation.
 
I confess the P51 has got a hold on me... building models as a kid I
never quit day dreaming about what would it be like to fly and fight
in a Mustang... so if I ever got lucky enough to actually pilot this
rare and sexy fighter I began preparing by 1)reading books, 2)honing
my skills on a Simulator and 3)logging time in Tail Draggers...

Books
Building the Mustang by Michael O'Leary

If you want to understand what it took to create America's Iconic fighter
from the first prototype and initial production Mustangs built for the
RAF, to the P51B Razor Backs and classic P51D Bubble Backs... If you want
to be right next to the factory workers assembling subcomponets,
wiring harnesses, engine mounts and sighting the 6 50 cal Browning machine
guns... If you want to listen to the engineers debate employing the new
NACA laminar flow airfoil and how aerodynamicist Ed Horkey
specifically adapted it for North American... If you want to be in the
cockpit with test pilot Paul Balfour as the first prototype lost
engine power and he was forced to dead stick in a plowed field and
come to a halt flat on its back...



Read and heed AAF Manual 51-127-5 P51 Pilot Training Manual

The techniques and procedures in the official manual are standard and
mandatory... In this respect the text serves the dual purpose of a
training checklist and a working handbook... I paid particular
attention to the pages covering Aerobatics because I did not want to
fly in moderation...

Quote Page 78
The P-51D has really exceptional acrobatic qualities; stick and rudder
pressures are light and the aileron control is excellent at all
speeds. Be sure of one thing before entering any acrobatic
maneuver-have plenty of altitude. You can do chandelles, wingovers,
slow rolls, loops, Immelmans, and split-S turns with/ease. However,
remember that you must limit inverted flying to 10 seconds because of
loss of oil pressure and failure of the scavenger pump to operate in
inverted position

In a loop you have to pull the airplane over the top, as the nose
won't want to fall through by itself. If you don't fly the airplane on
over the top of the loop, it has a tendency to climb on its back.

The aerodynamic characteristics of the P-51D are such that snap rolls
cannot be satisfactorily performed. This has been proved by a long
series of test flights. So don't try any snap rolls in an attempt to
show that you're the guy who can do them. You'll invariably wind up in
a power spin-and that's bad. Caution: Acrobatics must not be attempted
unless the fuselage tank contains less than 40 gallons of fuel.




MicroSoft Flight Sim has one of the visually stunning and highly
accurate P51 flight modeling you can buy... coupled with a
Thrustmaster joy stick and CH Products rudder pedals this 1G flight
training helps you understand whats it takes to counter the props
torque and how to work the differential braking... Just beware,
Microsoft's P51 is a clip wing, souped up, limited fuel loaded Reno
Air Racer... this is not your typical War Bird, you're in command of
one over powered and sassy race bred Mustang... mercy it will show 150
inches manifold pressure and hit 500 mph pulling 4Gs...






I logged tail dragger time:
Stinson 108
North American AT6
Beechcraft Twin Model 18
Boeing PT17 Stearman
RV8
Piper Cub
Champion Citabria
Naval Factory N3N
DeHaviland Chipmunk

From a mere dreamer to actually slipping into aft the cock pit I'm
greeted by the full range of controls... it's now my turn to tackle a
real P51 named Betty Jane... I feel ready to do it all... from taxiing
to S turns across the ramp to the run up area at McClellan... taking
the active I felt prepared and my confidence was high that I could
control the P51 in moderation... The solid and harmonious feel on the
stick during loops and rolls had me giggling in the headset but it was
time to yank and bank a 1450HP fighter in a mock dog fight like I had
done in a AT6... my first "gotcha" moment occurred half way through a
hard 90 bank elevator turn to the left... I failed to coordinate
rudder with ailerons and the props torque gave an immediate opposite
physical force which altered our path wide and away from the tight
turn... Mercy that sucked but what if I reverse??? so with out
hesitation I yanked the stick over hard right and initiated another 90
bank elevator turn... props torque got me again as it took control
wrestling the airframe down and out of the tight turn... So there I am
hurling towards the ground in a 3,500 ft per min dive... Abort and
recover... OK "pudknocker" getting spanked twice is not education...
executing a harmonious tight combat turn is not as easy as real
fighter pilots make it look... the prop is indeed the boss, all 11 ft
2 in of it... Even though I lost the fight (bandit 1, xlax 0)I loved
every second of my learning experience flying Betty Jane a rare Razor
Back Mustang... Salutes to the Collings Foundation for their keep'em
flying dedication... I must get back up there and try again...



 
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